New student "gear packages"

[Jaksonbrown]

I know of no shop that requires the purchase of anything more than M/F/S/gloves/booties here in the PNW. Any other purchase is made by the diver on his/her own motion. I'm sorry but you are responsible for making your own decisions. It is NOT the shop's fault you bought gear you decided wasn't right for what became your kind of diving.

Let's go in order:

a. "Traditional BC" rather than BP/W -- I'm willing to bet the BC works just fine for recreational diving (that is unless it actually doesn't fit you which can be a problem) but you've found something that works better FOR YOU. How is that the shop's fault? You got good stuff but Yes, Virginia, there sometimes IS better gear out there (just ask any photographer or purchaser of a new computer).

b. Fins -- Lots of people are very happy using split fins -- I don't like them but that doesn't mean they are junk. BTW, I sold my fins for a decent price -- more than the Turtles I now use.

c. Regulators -- didn't mention that but I'm convinced there are no bad regulators being sold -- just some may be better for a particular use than others.

d. Mask -- What? If the mask fits then it fits -- right? If it doesn't fit, why did you buy it in the first place?

People need to take responsibility for their actions -- even in buying Scuba gear!

Peter,.. you have got to be kidding. It WAS the shops fault I bought those crappy split fins, and wetsuit, and BCD's. The same crap they are still pushing on students today.

When a newbie walks into a LDS and asks to be set up with the "best" equipment for PNW diving and is sold a set of equipment. One would hope that it would be such. One would not hope that they would be replacing the majority of it within a year for what is generally considered standard equipment in the PNW. Equipment that was not even offered to students, but was labeled as "tech" gear for very advanced divers only. There were 10 students in my class, and all were equipped with the same gear. But I guess your right. I should have taken the responsibilty upon myself to research PNW diving, interview all the divers I could find on their choice of equipment, do some surveys, hang out at the dive sites, and find out what divers are actually using etc, and then argue and demand to be sold "tech gear" instead of taking the advice of the LDS professional and person I was about to take instruction from.

All Im saying, is that a responsible dive shop, instructor, would have simply said,..." If your gonna stay in this sport and dive Cold water, your gonna want a Drysuit, a BPW setup, blade style fins and drygloves. That is the standard around here." "its what I use" Instead of responding to questions about why the instructors are all using different gear than the students are being set up with, by saying... "This is all Technical gear. For advanced divers only".

It is my opinion, that entry level divers are offered "entry level" equipment with the knowledge that if they stay in the sport, they will eventually replace it with better gear. That way they are forced to buy from the LDS twice. But once again, this might have been an isolated instance being done by an unethical shop.... hence the original question regarding if others have seen this going on.

 

[TSandM]

I disagree with Peter; I DO think it is the responsibility of a shop to make good recommendations to new divers, because new divers don't have the information to make good decisions on their own, and may not have any idea where to look for it. Five years ago, when I got certified, I hadn't acquired the habit of researching everything on the internet, and I had no idea ScubaBoard or anything like it existed. I looked to the dive shop to make intelligent recommendations for me, for gear that I could use to dive here. They didn't drive me to the most expensive stuff they sold, and by their lights, everything I bought was usable for PNW diving -- at least, the majority of instructors and DMs that work there use the same type of gear I bought.

As you know, I do agree with you that the gear we both now use is BETTER gear for the PNW, for a variety of reasons. And I think it's quite unfortunate that a lot of new divers DO get advice to buy gear they will subsequently replace. But the sad thing is that the gear they buy is sold to them because it's what the shop is familiar with and what the staff know and use, and they don't know about anything else and often view other things with deep suspicion. The dive shop folks aren't sitting in the back room s******ing and saying, "Sold another i3 to another idiot. It's a good day!"

But we also have to recognize that there are a LOT of divers out there diving the very gear that you and I discarded, and diving it happily. So our preferences remain that -- OURS -- and really not something to be disgusted with a dive shop about. (She says, having watched three divers yesterday decide that, in fact, backplate setups were MUCH more comfortable than what they had previously been diving.)

 

[RTee]

When I first got certified in 1978, the training I took was provided by a NAUI instructor associated with a military diving club and not a LDS. Therefore, we got a lot of good general information on equipment without having a very specific brand ''imposed upon us or being highly recommended''.

Interestingly enough, the first pair of fins I bought as part of my basic package were ...jetfins (made by Healthways) if my memory serves me right. I would still have them around for my son to use if I had not threw them away when the straps broke a few years back and thinking that nobody else were using them anymore. Go figure...lol

When I got back seriously into diving again (Dec 2008), I got a set of Mares Quattro Excel which I love using when diving single tanks and re-equipped myself with wetsuit 7mm plus shorty 7mm, a BCD, etc. Last December I decided to pursue more advanced equipment...set of doubles, DIN regs, BPW, drysuit and ...a pair of Turtle Fins as my Mares did not fit over the EVO3 boots.

Here are some of my general thoughts on equipment...

diving courses provided LDS will invariably ''expose'' the course members to the brand(s) offered by that shop and regrettably very few folks may attempt to get a second opinion elsewhere or through the internet because they happen to trust (blindly perhaps) their instructor and LDS staff.

Around here most OW courses only require the students to show up with what I will refer to as thier scuba diving underwear (fins, mask, snorkel). While some folks may seem to think that they can save a few bucks by buying the rest of their equipment for their OW certification dives (instead of renting it), I think that in most cases they do so at their own perils as they find themselves, on one hand, at the mercy of the LDS and, on the other hand, with their knowledge being so limited, they may not have an idea as to what they are really after in scuba diving except perhaps to travel south and see colorful marine life. As a matter of fact, some folks decide to limit their diving just to those occasions after experiencing the freshness (read cold temperature) of the local open water environment during their certification dives. (as previously mentionned by Submariner)

Wetsuits vs drysuit...I think one needs to come before the other. Once you have become comfortable controlling the wetsuit environment you may want to upgrade to drysuit. Here in Canada, I get to dive using a wide variety of thermal protection. I use drysuit when diving doubles or deep quarry/lakes with thermocline, 7mm or 3mm with and without chicken vest when diving single tanks and the water is warming up in the late spring/summer. Last week, I dove in my 3mm down to 100 ft in the St-Lawrence River just east of Lake Ontario. Having said that...I always chuckle when I see OW certification classes at the local quarry where all the students are wearing rental wetsuits and the divemasters and instructors...drysuit. Perhaps this should be the first indication to the student that they should inquire further before investing/spending all kind of money in whatever thermal protection suit.

Having said that, I am at all not convinced that introducing drysuit on OW courses would be a good idea and it goes much beyond the extra confined water session...I have seen experienced wetsuit divers feeling initially challenged and even a bit overwhelmed during their drysuit conversion course...

BP/W vs BCD...I applaude those training establishments/LDS which provide the opportunity to their customers and students to try a variety of system and explain the particularities of each so the folks can make an educated decision as to what work best for them. Nowadays you can get back inflate for the same price as traditional BCD. As TS&M was saying in another post, being modular in design, a BP/W can grow and adapt to the diving styles individuals may choose to pursue but I think very few are being made aware of that fact. For me, while the amount of sophistication, pockets, etc seemed to be very important at some point in time, I now cherish the simplicity and resiliency (much less gadgets, buckles, that can break) of a BP/W concept only equipped with four sets of D rings over an all singing all dancing BCD. Having spoiled myself with a SS BP/W to dive doubles, I just acquired an Express Tech for travel and local single tank dives.

 

[MRector]

I'm brand newly certified. I bought a whole setup as a mixture from two LDS's because each shop didn't have the blend of gear that I decided I wanted to buy.

Perhaps I'm one of the few, but I have to earn every penny I spend and with that in mind I always research things before I buy them. To say a LDS is at fault for selling someone something that they later regret is like being upset at a Chevrolet dealership for not selling you a Toyota.

Of course on top of all of that, due to the fact that I haven't had the chance to try EVERY piece of gear that exists, chances are I'll find something that works better for me down the road. However I'd rather dive with gear that works well if not the best for me instead of renting gear. I'll consider each replacement as both a lesson learned and a chance to grow, with the understanding that if there was only one perfect piece of gear for everyone (price, fit, performance, etc), then I never would have had a problem in the first place because that's the only piece of gear that would be sold.

 

[DaleC]

I had a good experience with my certifying shop.

I think a big part of this was that I did not go in with a lot of disposable income (like MR above). Not saying the OP is in this boat but it does seem that a phenomenon of todays affluent consumer is the notion that they can buy their experiences instead of earning them. "Here's my credit card, sell me the best because nothing less will do!"
Perhaps if I had whipped out my platinum credit card things might have been different for me too.

My LDS owner was under no illusions that he was going to get rich quick off of me (I would walk into his shop in my dirty work clothes every week or two to hand over another $50 or $100) but he was patient and bled me pretty good anyways. I've said several times that he actually talked me out of many "questionable" purchases (air2, spare air etc...) and helped me prioritize what I really needed instead. I bought a used set of rental regs for a decent price from him and did layaway for a jacket BCD (my choice) and computer (which he let me use while I was paying them off). He also never commented on my outside purchases.

Eventually I upgraded my jacket BC for a BP/W but I could just as well dive that jacket today if I wanted to. A BP/W is not "required gear" for the PNW. It is perfectly functional but I just prefer the platform that a BP/W provides. I dive a variety of different rigs these days and find most workable to some degree or another. In fact, the most comfortable single tank rig I dive is an old campac ABS plate and a horsecollar. I think part of the "prefered" configurations we often hear about have more to do with percieved performance or appearances than real world function. Same goes for split fins. I dive jet blades myself but I see many divers successfully negotiating our waters in splitfins. The risk of entanglement in caveline is very minimal around here.



Also, all they required for personal gear were fins, mask and snorkel, the rest was rental gear included in the cert price.

 

[a22shady]

To say a LDS is at fault for selling someone something that they later regret is like being upset at a Chevrolet dealership for not selling you a Toyota.

I don't think the real problem is the LDS selling someone something they later on don't like or regret later. But more so that they tend to push the "Basic" recreational gear on to its customers. It seems in some cases here when people question other types of gear the LDS will tell them it's "advanced" or "Tech" gear and shy them away from it. Instead what they should do and Mine did and hopefully others is Not label the gear to make it sounds like they can't use it or not ready for it. But tell them what it is and explain the Pros/cons of said gear. Doing this could very well help a lot of people from having to spend twice on gear.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think the real problem is the LDS selling someone something they later on don't like or regret later. But more so that they tend to push the "Basic" recreational gear on to its customers. It seems in some cases here when people question other types of gear the LDS will tell them it's "advanced" or "Tech" gear and shy them away from it. Instead what they should do and Mine did and hopefully others is Not label the gear to make it sounds like they can't use it or not ready for it. But tell them what it is and explain the Pros/cons of said gear. Doing this could very well help a lot of people from having to spend twice on gear.

... but lots of LDS's want you to spend twice on gear ... their business model depends on it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jaksonbrown]

... but lots of LDS's want you to spend twice on gear ... their business model depends on it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As always Bob,... you have a way of breaking down into a single sentance, what takes me two paragraphs to try and say correctly.

Bravo!

 

[TSandM]

Well, the LDS that sold me my original gear may have counted on selling me a second round, but they don't carry anything I switched to!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, the LDS that sold me my original gear may have counted on selling me a second round, but they don't carry anything I switched to!

... which may explain why they tried so hard to convince you that you didn't need the gear you ended up with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)