New student "gear packages"

[spt29970]

... but lots of LDS's want you to spend twice on gear ... their business model depends on it ...

Are you serious? Look at the numbers. The vast majority of people who start diving are not active within a couple years. These people are clearly not "spending twice." Of the active divers, most of them continue diving with their original gear. Only a tiny fraction replace their gear with something different, and of those, many will not buy from the same shop. How is it that you think that their business model revolves around this group?

As far as I can tell, the LDS business model is based around getting as many new divers in the door as possible, training them, and selling them their original gear packages. They also make a little money doing repairs and service. Most dive shops want to keep the active divers happy because they help bring others into the sport and have ongoing (though small) expenditures.

 

[fjpatrum]

Im not sure if it is true in all locations, but here in the Seattle area, most new students are talked into a bulk package when they begin their training to get certified. It usually includes fins, mask, snorkel, booties and a hood. At least here in the PNW anyway. I was new to cold water diving and got certified in Seattle with my wife and my 14yr old son. Not wanting to scrimp on cheap equipment, I had the dive shop set us up with their "best" equipment. Now three years later, I am not using a single piece of the original equipment I was sold, and furthermore... know now that it is all pretty much crappy entry level equipment. You know.. the twin jet split fins, the BCD, snorkel, 7mm wetsuit, etc. Why is it that when new students are introduced to the gear, they are not offered any BPW set ups? Turtle style fins? Drysuits are not encouraged and labeled "not necessary"
I have thousands of dollars of gear just sitting in my garage that I bought for us that I have replaced with what is considered "standard issue" cold water gear around here. That being the BPW, drysuits, 7mm hoods, loose the snorkel, Turtle or Jet style fins and dry gloves.
Sure would have been nice to have been introduced to this gear up front and given a real picture of what kind of Cold water gear I would be wanting if I pursued the sport further instead of having to buy everything twice. I guess a light should have gone on when I noticed that not one of my instructors was using the same gear they had just sold us.

Anyone else experience this?

I'm new and I don't know what "turtle style fins" are but I suspect that if shops pushed drysuits and more expensive masks, fins and snorkels, they'd lose even more business than they do when they "push" the so called cheapo stuff. If someone had told me "here you're going to want to drop $2k on a setup now so you won't have to buy more later" I'd have laughed at them and I never had any doubt that I'd love diving. For many shops their clientele is the vacation diver who wants to go to Hawaii, or Mexico or the Caribbean and dive once a year. Those people don't need 7mm wetsuits or drysuits. As for fins, everyone has different likes and dislikes. The only thing I want in a mask is that it fits so there's no way in hell I'm paying more than $15 for one. Snorkels are generally required for the cert classes but every instructor I've spoken with basically said, "buy the cheapest one you can for the class because you probably won't need it after the class is finished."

As for BP/W setups, I agree with you there, more shops should at least introduce the option to potential customers and have someone capable of listing the pros and cons of both vests and BP/Ws.

If the gear is just sitting in your garage, list it here and on ebay and craigslist and wherever. Use the money to start a diving vacation fund to somewhere you'd like to go.

 

[a22shady]

Turtle/Jet fins are actually less espensive then most. They are plain and simple fins that work. They been used for years and last. As for a Mask I agree a Mask that fits and is one for scuba is all you need. But chances are very very slim you will get a good mask for 15 unless your buying used. I do not feel you need to spend 100 or more. I believe I spent around 45-50 for my mask.


http://www.xsscuba.com/fin_turtle.html

http://www.scubapro.com/americas/english/scubapro-products/fins/blade-fins/jet-fins

 

[tomboyy]

Are you serious? Look at the numbers. The vast majority of people who start diving are not active within a couple years. These people are clearly not "spending twice." Of the active divers, most of them continue diving with their original gear. Only a tiny fraction replace their gear with something different, and of those, many will not buy from the same shop. How is it that you think that their business model revolves around this group?

As far as I can tell, the LDS business model is based around getting as many new divers in the door as possible, training them, and selling them their original gear packages. They also make a little money doing repairs and service. Most dive shops want to keep the active divers happy because they help bring others into the sport and have ongoing (though small) expenditures.

Really ? whats your source for this information.

 

[SubMariner]

One last comment is regarding learning to dive with a Drysuit. Personally I love my drysuit, but I think it is worthwhile learning to dive wet, even in cold water. Here are a few reasons.

* Drysuits are substantially more expensive than wetsuits, both initially, and in terms of maintenance. Any shop that tried to convince people to start dry would be accused of "pressuring people" to buy expensive gear to line their own pockets.

* The additional cost would scare away many prospective divers. As a previous poster noted, few people who learn to dive are still doing it a few years later. Starting with a more expensive package would just mean more money down the drain. Although the additional comfort of diving dry might retain more people.

* Most new cold water divers struggle with buoyancy control. Learning dry just makes this harder. Adding a drysuit after basic skills have been mastered makes learning drysuit specific skills easier. Moreover an out of control ascent with a drysuit is much more difficult to recover from than with a wetsuit. I don't have the stats, but I would be willing to bet that diving wet is safer, especially for novices.

* Wetsuits are more foolproof. There are no valves to maintain and no seals to care for. Scraping your knee on a rock won't kill your wetsuit.

Don't get me wrong. I love my drysuit, and the additional comfort of a diving dry might keep more people diving longer, but I just don't see recommending all beginners starting dry. Lastly, I dive a lot in the Channel Islands, where the water temps are typically between 50-60, so it isn't that much different than the PNW

Having dove both wet & dry in TGWN plus teaching many students in temperate climates, I can't disagree more.

At the OW level the learning curve is not that much steeper by introducing drysuit diving into the mix. It is also a fact that people who dive dry can stay in the water longer & enjoy it more. Case in point: my longest dive in a wetsuit was 25 bone chilling minutes. In a drysuit in the same area? Well over an hour.

Economical drysuits can be bought from various sources, including the manufacturers who often wind up with overstock or suits that were returned or abandoned after a deposit was paid. They come in various materials & configurations... basically you can tailor them to your budget. Furthermore, kneepads if they don't already come with the drysuit, are an easy and inexpensive addition.

Drysuit maintenance is not hard to learn or keep up, just like maintenance in general on scuba gear. Usually it's introduced with along with proper training as to how to use a drysuit comfortably & safely.

Pax,

 

[spt29970]

Really ? whats your source for this information.

Getting hard numbers on this is notoriously difficult since the dive agencies either don't know, aren't sharing, or are inflating their numbers. The best info I have seen on the subject is an Undercurrents article How Many Divers Are There? : Undercurrent 05/2007. Their estimates also jive with my discussions with our local dive shop owners. They tell me that around 15-20% of people who complete their open water course never pick up their C-cards and that within a year much less than 50% are booking dive trips or filling tanks. Perhaps many of them become "tropical only" divers. In my dive club I see the same thing. The dive shops churn out hundreds of certifications, but the number of divers that are active is much lower.

In any case I see absolutely no evidence that dive shops base their business model on selling people multiple sets of gear. So would you care to explain why you think they do? Moreover, it would be very interesting for you to ask your local dive shop owner what they think the retention is.

BTW, another good article on the topic is http://www.thedivingblog.com/2010/08/02/how-many-active-divers-are-there/

 

[Jaksonbrown]

Having dove both wet & dry in TGWN plus teaching many students in temperate climates, I can't disagree more.

At the OW level the learning curve is not that much steeper by introducing drysuit diving into the mix. It is also a fact that people who dive dry can stay in the water longer & enjoy it more. Case in point: my longest dive in a wetsuit was 25 bone chilling minutes. In a drysuit in the same area? Well over an hour.

Economical drysuits can be bought from various sources, including the manufacturers who often wind up with overstock or suits that were returned or abandoned after a deposit was paid. They come in various materials & configurations... basically you can tailor them to your budget. Furthermore, kneepads if they don't already come with the drysuit, are an easy and inexpensive addition.

Drysuit maintenance is not hard to learn or keep up, just like maintenance in general on scuba gear. Usually it's introduced with along with proper training as to how to use a drysuit comfortably & safely.

Pax,

Amen Pax,

My first drysuit cost me $600 brand new and I am still diving it today without having one problem with it whatsoever. My original point in this thread was not that you had to go out and spend $4000.00 as soon as you get in the water, but rather that dive shops should offer you, or at least introduce you to the gear that is pretty much standard around here instead of pushing gear on you that,..one,.. you buy because you dont know any better, and two,.. that you will replace as soon as you do. Turtle fins, drysuits and BPW set ups are prime examples.
FWIW... my BPW, turtle fins and drysuit, combined cost me less than $1000.00

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Are you serious? Look at the numbers. The vast majority of people who start diving are not active within a couple years. These people are clearly not "spending twice." Of the active divers, most of them continue diving with their original gear. Only a tiny fraction replace their gear with something different, and of those, many will not buy from the same shop. How is it that you think that their business model revolves around this group?

As far as I can tell, the LDS business model is based around getting as many new divers in the door as possible, training them, and selling them their original gear packages. They also make a little money doing repairs and service. Most dive shops want to keep the active divers happy because they help bring others into the sport and have ongoing (though small) expenditures.

We obviously run in different circles. The active divers I know ... the ones who would consider themselves "regulars" at one of our local dive shops ... are constantly spending money on gear, trips, and training. This holds true whether they are recreational or "tech" oriented ... the majority of the members of my dive club are purely recreational divers who dive one or more times a week, go on two or more dive trips a year, and regularly either upgrade or add new gear through purchases at their local shop. My tech friends ... well, let's just say we work to support our dive habit.

With the exception of the local LDS chain ... which targets new divers by selling very cheap OW classes ... I would say that the most successful shops in our area make the majority of their money from repeat customers, not new ones.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[spt29970]

That is exactly my point. You can't just look at "your circle". In the world of statistics this is called selection bias. If you only look your crowd of active divers, then of course you see a group of active divers, but that is not the norm. Ask a couple dive shops in your area what pays the rent and keeps the lights on. I would be willing to bet that it isn't from people who replace their basic open water packages. I am not saying that they don't make money from selling to active divers, clearly they do, what I am questioning is your assertion

... but lots of LDS's want you to spend twice on gear ... their business model depends on it ...

I have put out there how I think the economics works. Why don't you do the same? What fraction of new divers do you think are still active within a couple years? What fraction of those go on to replace their gear, and how do you think that forms the basis of the LDS business model?

 

[fjpatrum]

Turtle/Jet fins are actually less espensive then most. They are plain and simple fins that work. They been used for years and last. As for a Mask I agree a Mask that fits and is one for scuba is all you need. But chances are very very slim you will get a good mask for 15 unless your buying used. I do not feel you need to spend 100 or more. I believe I spent around 45-50 for my mask.


XS Scuba FN305 Turtle Scuba Fin

JET FINS - SCUBAPRO-UWATEC

Thanks for the link and picture. As for not getting a good mask cheaply, maybe I got lucky. I bought a saekodive mask, fins, and snorkel as a set, new, for $25. Now, saekodive may or may not make the best dive gear, I don't know, but it is capable of diving to recreational depths of at least 75 feet (I did it a week or so ago) without any issues. I don't think it's that hard to find dive rated gear at cheap prices, but my example might be a little extreme. I bought it in Thailand for a snorkeling trip to Phi Phi Island where I wished I was SCUBA certified. In the US it might be more like $25 for a mask, but I'd be willing to bet I can still find one cheaper than that, though probably not a whole set.