New guy bought a used AL tank: A story

[tnrussell50]

Question for you-
What did you pay for the tank in the first place.
Was the cost savings worth all of the time and trouble and gas money this tank has cost you ?
Sometimes a good deal isn't such a good deal.
Jim Breslin

Oh, I agree Jim, overall it's not a good deal. I am just one of those "see it thru" guys, with a bad temper. I will just find a place to fill it.

The DM that I bought it from worked at a local shop and just confirmed this morning that the paint on the tank was done by a guy recommended by the LDS. This was backed up by the LDS manager, so that's cool... somewhat. Still not a good buy for all the hassle I have had.

 

[tnrussell50]

Is that with a ISA or PCI air card? I hear a new USB air station is due with the next release of MS Windows. You can do nitrox on Linux!

Pete

Sprint broadband and Verizon cards don't work but if you use Firewire, you'll end up with a hot-fill.

 

[Paulmal]

I work in a dive shop and we are not allowed to fill Pre-1988 Aluminum tanks. before 1988 luxford used a diffrent blend of Al, this blend has a netoruios problem of forming cracks and blowing tanks apart threatining the filler so the insurance company will not let us fill them

 

[The Chairman]

I work in a dive shop and we are not allowed to fill Pre-1988 Aluminum tanks. before 1988 luxford used a diffrent blend of Al, this blend has a netoruios problem of forming cracks and blowing tanks apart threatining the filler so the insurance company will not let us fill them

Unfortunately, this is an all too easy "out" for an LDS. PSI has established a protocol for which tanks should be inspected and filled and it would be great if EVERYONE just stuck to that. It's just not that hard! Rules such as this are capricious and only serve to alienate the LDS from the consumer. You aren't saving money or lives, you are just pissing your customers off! You really won't like their solution as it does not involve them buying from you.

PSI's Editorial on Neck Cracking

[FONT=arial,helvetica]LUXFER’S SCBA CYLINDER VISUAL INSPECTOR GUIDE

[/FONT]It would ALSO be great if PSI's course was MANDATORY for all those inspecting tanks. Too many shortcuts are done by shops who do the "Good ol' Boy" certification method.

 

[Scared Silly]

I work in a dive shop and we are not allowed to fill Pre-1988 Aluminum tanks. before 1988 luxford used a diffrent blend of Al, this blend has a netoruios problem of forming cracks and blowing tanks apart threatining the filler so the insurance company will not let us fill them

SpareParts do yourself a favor and read these documents:

http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/reports/cylinder/3al_advisory.pdf

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/pdf/E6-14255.pdf

And oh yeah it Luxfer not Luxford - not sure I would want to have anyone touch my cylinders who does even know the proper names or regs.

 

[Scared Silly]

Unfortunately, this is all too easy an "out". PSI has established a protocol for which tanks should be filled and it would be great if EVERYONE just stuck to that. It's just not that hard! Rules such as this are capricious and only serve to alienate the LDS from the consumer. You aren't saving money or lives, you are just pissing your customers off! You really won't like their solution as it does not involve them buying from you.

Pete, One thing that Spareparts did mention that it was being dictated by their insurance company. This is the first time I have heard this directly. Usually, it is the usual we just do not fill them with some arbitrary date. When the insurance companies get involved logic can go by the wayside. Especially when it comes to a shop having to carry this insurance or find another provider.

If shops would say we do not fill 6351 cylinders I could accept that. I may not agree but I could accept that cause at least then I would hope they have trained their employees on how to find a 6351 cylinder besides by the initial hydro date. But after walking into a shop in the Keys that said we do not fill cylinders made before 1990 I choked. I figured they meant Al cylinders but their sign made no distinction between AL and Steel. So go figure that one.

However, all that a side it would be really good if the industry as a whole could decide on a course of action. Cause as you say it is pissing people off.

EDIT - one thing that bothers me about the eddy current rules for 6351 cylinders is that applies to ONLY those used for scuba. If the cylinder is used for other purposes such the one I have which is for CO2 the eddy current test is not required. The only difference is that the working pressure of my CO2 cylinder is 1800 psi versus 3000 psi for a scuba cylinder. I am sure this is because it is only the scuba cylinders that have had catastrophic failures.

 

[David P]

Spareparts, first no disrespect intended! Are you new to diving? Are you new to working at the dive shop? Have you been to a PSI inspection class? Or even just read the PSI book? What you said is just the BS line that a lot of dive shops feed the customers. I had to swing by a dive shop to pick up a part for a reg I was out of and they "informed me" of the new law that was about to take affect... it was illegal to fill ANY aluminum tank older than 1990! Now up until now I respected this shop, so I thought maybe there was something to it... I called PSI talked with Bill and boy was he pissed to hear the crap I was told... its totally BS! I hope you educate yourself and you can stand out among you coworkers as a tech/fill monkey who actually knows his *****.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, One thing that Spareparts did mention that it was being dictated by their insurance company. This is the first time I have heard this directly.

Yeah, it sounds more like a CYA maneuver to me! "Don't blame me, it's the INSURANCE COMPANY!" I heard a store deny the toilet to someone using this line. If you lie to me about THIS, what other lies will you be willing to tell me out of convenience? I would have to see that in writing BEFORE I would buy into that party line. That being said, if a dive shop GIVES me that information, I will gladly and publicly recant my statements here.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I picked up the tank, took it back to the hydro-place, they now had the DOT sheets, it got a passing grade.

Took it back to ST, got it VIP'd, (still no phone calls).. picked it up. ( no fill , they don't fill pre-90 AL tanks, that's cool, and hey if you think I have hard feelings towards ST, I purchased nearly ALL of my gear there, PLUS a short fat AL80 and a X8-119 steel).

Ok, fine, I had two scuba parks tell me they would fill it (the used tank). Great. Took it by Crazy Scuba on my way home.... he won't fill it cuz somebody painted it a metallic color that was not original and he was afraid it had been baked on.

I understand the logic here. In the old days long before the 6351-T6 alloy chicken little thing, which I will NOT get into as there are already a gazillion threads on it that basically involve long diatribes of faulty urban legend that live on in the face of facts including current test protocols and new legislation under which 6351-T6 tanks can be safely inspected and filled - as evidenced by a lack of any failure of a properly inspected 6351-T6 tank since the eddy current test protocols were adopted, a big concern was AL tanks exploding after being professionally painted and in the process baked at temps high enough to screw up the heat treatment.

Unfortunately, the logic here is also faulty, ignorant and chicken little in nature as I have yet to see a professional paint booth (outside the firearms industry and other very specialized applications) where the item painted is baked at or in excess of the 325 degrees F required to cause the heat treatment to fail - 140-150 degrees F is common it and that temp happens in a car trunk on a hot sunny August day.

Where the problem actually existed was in AL tanks being in a fire (where the heat treating was ruined by high temps in the fire) that were then professionally or otherwise painted for cosmetic reasons. It was not the paint process that made them dangerous, it was the fire, but in true chicken little form, ANY freshly painted AL tank was suspect and was likely to be refused to be filled and through ignorance the possible paint process was cited in all cases.

In your case however, there is no logic at all to the LDS concern as the tank has been freshly hydro tested and (I assume) the hydro test is stamped into the new paint, making it obvious that it was hydro tested after painting. You may need to point this out to the tank monkey and/or LDS VIP inspector. Back in the day, I would repaint AL tanks just prior to hydro in order to be able to demonstrate that the paint process did not harm the tank. This was and remains less than optimum as invariably the tank acquires a chip or two in the transport/hydro test process, but it helps ensure you can get it filled.

The irony here is of course that Luxfer paints their tanks after hydro testing and no one thinks twice about it. Someday I am going to peel all the labels off a new but year or two old hydro dated luxfer tank and take it in for a VIP and fill at one of my "favorite" shops just for the sake of argument.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

I recently bought 7000 used ups trucks, Equiped them with compressors and a 1" stianless steel cabinet to fill your tanks at your house. I know you all think this is a tremendous initial start up cost, But I got a GOVERMENT GRANT under the save my diver patriots act. After studying the scuba boards I some how feel it is my responsibility to make sure that any diver that wants to buy a old aluiminum tank pay for a hydo, Eddycurrent, and VIP, They deserve to get them filled. I and my narcosis team came up with this solution, as long as its filled safely it should not explode while diving, we spent numerous hours on this research filling old aluminum tanks. Are drivers are equipped with
bomb suits.
This is totally safe, we are guesing to take over the air and technical gas market, AIR-GAS is totally on board with us we will get a special rate on gasses, shell oil is also on board for fuel rate cut.
The only way I could swing this is under the GREEN system here in america, are hopes are to take this worldwide, The narcosis team wants to make it a safe world to dive in.
The cost is a mere 3.00 dollars a fill, Yea I know what your thinking thats a dollar more an hour than a instructor makes, Assuming 1 hour a fill.
We are taking applications at this time.
Qualifactions,
legal drivers license
certified diver.

The truck stays at your house and is a 24 hour service.
There are 40 new aluminum tanks for rent or exchange if compressorf is down.(Are insurance wont allow us to rent the old aluminum tanks)
If this sounds like a new job change for you, contact US at FILL IT UP VOO DOO .COM
And I ask please don't abuse the truck and equipment, such as taking to dive sites and free fills for freinds, up and down canyon roads yo cave or altitude diving.
The only benefits that we have to offer is to make sure any one diving an old aluminum tank is safe.
your salary is on commision, we strongly recommend not to raise the air fill price. That will come later when we corner the market and run all of the dive shops not on the water,(I love my vacation diving) out of business. You see the narcosis team just wants to get on this , Like you all seen on the online gear sales.

We should be opening are fill whips in JAN 2008.
A little advice this is bigger than microsoft, Get voodoo now at low price of $129.00
Gotta get to my slack tide now.