New DS Diver, Still Alive

[dkatchalov]

Just turned my DS inside out and the neo socks are still soaking wet all the way through. I think what the problem may have been is the fact that I jumped in the shower in my suit to wash it after the dive. By that stage I fiddled with the seals, let air into the suit, etc and I'm think the seal integrity may have been compromised. Basically I was just having a shower in it and perhaps water got in that way and I didnt even realise because it did not go into the undergarment, but rather straight down the inside of the suit and to the boots. Is this possible?

 

[evil_xander]

Anything is possible, you'll just have to dive it out until you reach a conclusion.

OTOH, you could try just to fill the feet with water or sink them in the tub and see if they will soak/leak.

 

[tstormdiver]

Yes, my weights were distributed over a couple of weight systems. I was diving in recreational gear that day (a hybrid jacket/ back inflate recreational BC & AL80 tank). I had my weight distributed; 30lbs on my BC (10lbs non- releasable & 20 in releasable pockets) & 20lbs in my weight harness. I did brief my buddy on how to release them in an emergency, if needed. As for my Double tank configuration, I haven't yet exactly dialed in my weighting just yet (waiting for a nitrox fill on the tanks & the shop's waiting on an oxygen delivery). In that configuration, I use double LP85's, but only have an aluminum back plate, so there's only minimal (maybe only 1-2lbs, tops) negative help from the backplate. From the one time I did dive the doubles in that undergarment with the doubles, it's looking like I might need 10- 12lbs extra. Once I can dive the doubles a little more & get the weighting better dialed in using the weight harness, I'll probably go over to an appropriately weighted SS backplate. The undergarment I'm using has, easily, about the thickness of a very heavy winter coat or coveralls ( the biggest draw back to the undergarment, besides the weighting issue, is it does tend to make some movement a tad more difficult, but not impossible). I'd be curious to see what other divers who have used the Pinnacle Merino Evolution undergarments have done about their weights, if anything. I'm not saying my breathing may have been a bit out of whack either. I love diving but absolutely hate the cold. The cold water does tend to make me subconsciously breathe faster (so, I'm sure that's not helping) & it's something I will hopefully be able to learn to control with time. To date I have about 50 drysuit dives, but only about 4 dives in this newer drysuit & undergarments. I'm in no way saying that there's not any room for improvement, there certainly is, I was just stating that the 50lbs is what it took that day to get & keep me down.

 

[PerroneFord]

Alright,

Now we're getting somewhere!

Be careful with that steel plate and steel tanks. When I tried that combo, I was way to head heavy. I went with a DSS Kydex plate and a tail weight. I didn't need the weight, I needed the trim. I do not use the Merino undergarment, I use the one just below that.

I think you're onto something with that cold water / breathing faster thing. Do you feel it as soon as you hit the water? Or is it your face that triggers the breathing? This is all pretty new to me. And in case you're wondering why I am so interested, I don't want to take my trip to the great lakes in '08, and find I am 20 pounds too light! I am trying to test out everything first but it's pretty hard to replicate great lakes water temps when you live in Florida!

Thanks for sharing Tammy.

 

[tstormdiver]

Good point, Perrone, on the SS backplate, I might look into some V weights set low then, thank you for the head's up. Never thought of it that way.

I would say the increased breathing starts once I'm in the water (never really thought about it until just now, so never paid a lot of attention) & the cold water hits my hands, head (using wet suit gloves & drysuit hood) & face. Kind of like one would do splashing cold water on the face or jumping into a cold shower. I haven't felt the cold through the suit or undergarment, only the head, hands & face. The waters that day at Mermet was at about 51 degrees & air temps were about the same.

I have to say, I felt sorry for my buddy that day, as he was diving wet, but also have to admit, he had guts for a newbie on his first cool/ cold water dive.

 

[tstormdiver]

Alright,
I am trying to test out everything first but it's pretty hard to replicate great lakes water temps when you live in Florida!

Perhaps you may be able to find a deeper lake or quarry within a reasonable traveling distance. In most lakes &/ or quarries, the temps are typically 40- 45 degrees year round below 60ft or so. I would think that would be pretty close to what you would find in the great lakes. I was looking & there appears to be a 165ft quarry near Atlanta ( Dive Haven Georgia Atlanta Area Quarry Scuba Diving Certification and Instruction White Georgia www.divehavenga.com ) & a couple in northern AL ( www.divealabama.com & Dive Land Park and Scuba Supply - Best Quarry diving in Alabama ) I primarily dive a couple of quarries around KY & IL that reach depths of 120- 130ft (maybe a few feet shallower due to the drought this year).

 

[PerroneFord]

Yes,

I have identified a place I can go test the gear in temps in the 40s. I'll be doing that in the February/March time frame. But the temps are going to be different by nearly 10-12 degrees. That's pretty significant.

I wonder what the vis is like.

Perhaps you may be able to find a deeper lake or quarry within a reasonable traveling distance. In most lakes &/ or quarries, the temps are typically 40- 45 degrees year round below 60ft or so. I would think that would be pretty close to what you would find in the great lakes. I was looking & there appears to be a 165ft quarry near Atlanta ( Dive Haven Georgia Atlanta Area Quarry Scuba Diving Certification and Instruction White Georgia www.divehavenga.com ) & a couple in northern AL ( www.divealabama.com & Dive Land Park and Scuba Supply - Best Quarry diving in Alabama ) I primarily dive a couple of quarries around KY & IL that reach depths of 120- 130ft (maybe a few feet shallower due to the drought this year).

 

[oly5050user]

Ok, so as a new DS diver, I couldn't be bothered waiting for the DS specialty course and jumped in the water with my Pinnacle Evo 2 with no prior DS experience.

My pool session in the suit was disastrous, painful and I absolutely hated. The pier practise before my boat dives was much better and I practised my rolls, disconnecting the hose, etc. I was fine and decided I need more weight.

For the boat dive we did a 19 metre reef dive and I was fine in the suit. I got all the air out in the first 5 metres or so and closed the exhaust valve. Then I took the squeeze off by pumping some air in and I was fine. Floaty legs, etc. weren't a problem.

So I am alive and well and now have to figure out a way to get my LDS to return my money for the course.

I have two questions though:

1. I had 11kg of weight on, which is almost double the 6kg I normally wear with my full 7mm wetsuit and other exposure protection. I am sure I was overweighted. I actually needed to pump air into my wing to get me off the bottom on ascent. At the 5 metre stop, I was nowhere neutrally buoyant. In fact, my wing was substantially inflated to just keep me at that depth and I had to continue finning.

It basically looks like my weight should be about 6 kg - same as for my wetsuit config. Have any divers experienced a situation where there wet and dry requirements are the same? Btw, at the bottom, I had to pump a truck load of air into my BC to keep me from scraping the bottom and basically dragging along it. It was not ideal and I had to work a lot harder due to the weight.

2. Is it normal for theneoprene DS boots socks to get water in them?? The evo 2 has the attached neo socks and my actual cotton socks were socked in them. The rest of me (including my undergarment) was dry as, but my socks were soaking wet. Is this normal?! Or is there a leak in the suit and I am not aware of it? It certainly didn't feel like the suit was leaking during the dive.

Thanks.

You state you had all these problems-"oh but I am still alive" and you feel that you do not need a class in dry suit use?
Do you now know all benefits/features of the materials used in constructing suits? Any knowledge of undergarments available? Know how to evaluate type of seals that would be best for your type of diving?Can you do any repairs or better yet maintain the suit so repairs are minimized?
If you purchased suit at a LDS did they offer a free course with it? I know that I do.
You state in a later post that the money you saved you would use in an advance course ..As an instructor I would not let you use the dry suit as I have no documented proof that you are capable of using it.You would have to prove to me,by going to a pool at the least,for a orientation session with the suit if you wish to use it during advance course,and one of the advance dives would be an adventure dry suit dive.Oh,I would have to charge you an additional fee for the pool session.Sounds like you were also grossly overweighed if you had to pump alot of air into bcd to get off the bottom..weighed properly there woul be minimal use of bcd,if any,to maintain neutral buoyancy,when using suit correctly. Sorry to tell you this but it sounds to me that there is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Blackwood]

Hmm, 22 in fresh water is a lot. I think that I generally need less weight than most ppl given I am tall and lanky. I am goign to try 6kg/13 pounds next weekend and hopefully will stay down!

I'm not as tall as you are, but likely have a similar body type as far as buoyancy is concerned.

<--- Bora Bora in the background

I don't have my actual references on me, but I threw together an example of how I arrive at my weight requirements:

 

[dave4868]

Sorry for all the self-quotes below, but they might provide more clarity.

I agree with you completely that the weighting primarily depends on the thickness and the loft of the undergarment.

In this we are in perfect agreement. So can you and Tstorm give some insight into what undergarments you're using? The only thing I can compare it to, is the DUI 400g which I wore with the 400g thinsulate booties in a TLS350.

I'll list my setup at the end of this post, but the DUI 400G is probably similar in buoyancy characteristics, at least based on seeing a friend use one.

He's about 3-inches shorter than I am and wears about the same amount of weight with a CF200 and the Thinsulate 400g.

Maybe it doesn't make sense because all the variables aren't readily apparent.

Which variables am I missing? Diver (allot 10 pounds). Gear (negative). Suit (neutral, undergarments (buoyant). What's missing?

You may not be missing anything significant, but, generally, I was thinking about undergarment buoyancy factors such as compressibility (retention of loft), stiffness and excessive size (which might tend to create folds).

I'd also consider other factors such as the shallowness of the dive (which might preserve high loft), the possibly greater internal space in the boots and/or drygloves and even whether the neoprene items are more buoyant than most.

I don't doubt Tammy for a second, since she's said that 50 lbs was what she needed after gradually adjusting the weights.

I am not trying to cast doubt at all. I am trying to understand what could possibly cause a diver to need to wear so much weight. A LOSS of that weight underwater would be absolutely catastrophic. I hope it's distributed and not all on a belt.

That's a great point about the danger of suddenly releasing a substantial amount of weight! I consider it one of the biggest dangers I face.

To avoid that, I made a shoulder harness for my 38-lb belt that will keep it on me should the buckle come loose. (My other reason for a harness was for getting the strain off my front zip when walking to and from the water.)

I may switch to a backplate and wing someday just to transfer the weight, not to mention all the other advantages over my jacket bcd. I'm real slow to make changes....

At the risk of starting the "good divers wear less weight" discussion, I also use large amounts of insulation and lots of weight, especially in the winter. So do my winter diving buddies....at least the ones who are warm like me for extended dives.

This is not about good and bad divers. It's about understanding divers in different environments. So I am asking what is a "large amount of insulation? Are you wearing significantly more than 400g of Thinsulate? In preparing for my dives on the great lakes, I plan to wear that undergarment (or something similar) along with some underarmour and perhaps some long johns. Are you wearing more than that?

I've heard that Thinsulate 400g is on par with the Weezle Extreme Plus that I use. People love them both.

A few days ago, I wore my usual winter undergarments in 40-degree saltwater and wore close to the minimum amount of weight needed: 51 lbs of lead.

Help me understand this.

I'm sure you're not asking what I mean by minimum, which is the lowest amount of weight (at the surface with empty tanks) that would still allow me to get neutral after thoroughly venting the bcd and suit.

I think you're referring to what accounts for my needing 51lbs, which is detailed below.

I actually would've preferred about 2 or 3 more lbs at the end of the dive, since I drained both my HP120 and my al30 and it was hard to vent that last little bit to get neutral. Normally, the al30 stays full and unused.

I see you are diving a single steel, and your AL30 would have been neutral to slightly buoyant. My twin 108s would probably give me another 12 pounds over you.

That sounds accurate.

54 lbs is usually my preferred saltwater winter diving weight.

I have no reference for saltwater in my drysuit yet.

IIRC, you're a big guy, so it might be more than the typical 4-6lbs, as you know.

That might surprise some or draw ridicule....but on that day I was "toasty" warm in the 40-degree water for two long, low-activity dives.

Not surprising at all. If you dress well, you should be warm.

I also avoid constriction of body parts, especially extremities, to keep the warm blood flowing.

First dive's duration was 2hr 5 minutes.

SI of 1hr 15min. Air temp of 40F.

Then the second dive for 1hr 50min.

I won't go into the various elements of my thermal protection, but it is that buoyant! And it is that warm!

I think it would shed a lot of light if you DID go into your elements of thernal protection. That's the missing piece of the puzzle.... Don't keep how you're staying warm for 2 hours a secret!

Well, I'm glad you asked that question....

Actually, I want to avoid sounding like a blowhard, but if you really want to endure some stupefying details, they are in my posting linked below.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/in...-f-water-ne-usa-but-warm-here-scubaboard.html

Otherwise, I'll summarize here. I'd hate to put you into that other long post, one is enough!

• CLx450, roomy, mobile fit even with max insulation
• Rockboots 1-sz oversize, laced loosely (CF200 suit socks are also oversize)
• Henderson 1/8" neoprene Ice Cap underhood
• DUI Warm Neck 7mm neoprene hood
• 2 homemade 1/8"x2" neoprene neck bands
• Oversized, wide view mask that seals to the Ice Cap
• Weezle Extreme+ (Plus)
• 100 wt polypropylene long underwear
• homemade 4-layer fleece chest pad 12x18"
• thick wool socks
• Weezle socks
• SI TECH drygloves, roomy fit
• 2 pair of polypropylene glove liners, one larger than the other
• Mares Quattros fins
• SeaQuest Spectrum 2, a lightweight jacket bcd
• PST HP120
• Al30 on a Highland SS pony band
• 51-54lbs of lead for saltwater

For me, a sedentary nearly 57-year old guy, with a turtle's metabolism, doing low-activity photo dives, this setup keeps me so warm, even down to the low-30's, that I'm not even aware of any cold areas until well into the second hour, and then they are minor.

The long 40-degree dives last Saturday were wonderfully and completely comfortable.

At the end of the second dive, I noticed a coolness in both of my insteps. I think I may have shoved my Rockboots into the fin pockets too far, creating a pressure point or constriction point. That was the only thing that didn't feel like living-room warmth that day.

In addition to the extra insulation, I think avoiding constriction has been key for me. I'll notice some coldness if I lace the Rockboots tight, or use a tighter glove or tighter glove liners or have my knife strap too tight on my leg, or even bending my elbow constantly while holding the flag line handle.

Since I'm thinking about getting new Quattros, I may go to the next size up to avoid the tight fin pocket, but that's usually not a problem if I don't shove them in too deeply.

Oh, it may be just my imagination, but I think I may be significantly warmer because I use only my drysuit for buoyancy control, but I understand the pros and cons of this for people, so I don't push it on anyone.

One more thing that might add to my buoyancy is that my undergarment is a little big on me. I just fold over about 3-inches of excess torso length in the low back and abdomen. Maybe that keeps my kidneys and gut warmer, an unintended benefit.

I also try to avoid heat loss prior to the dives. It was 20 degrees outside while I suited up Saturday, but I kept warm in a snowmobile suit, balaclava and gloves.

Any thoughts, PerroneFord? I'll bet some of this sounds pretty strange....

Dave C