New Bungee / Long hose setup - Questions

[shoredivr]

Wow, tbone, considering PfcAJ and ucfdiver's position with GUE, I'd certainly be arguing my understanding of OW hose lengths and GUE OW training with them. Right.

 

[phoenix31tt]

The idea of learning how to donate gas via the Internet is a standing joke and an example of where believing what some random individuals who shout loudest will get you.

i really don't think you are getting the point. Nobody is teaching anybody how to donate gas. There are several "common" methods of house routing/lengths etc... you asked a specific question about having a necklaced primary and a 40" secondary.

I have listed reasons why that would not be feasible.... regardless of somebody is taught, a real life situation could be very different. I'd rather dive a configuration that addresses the issue and doesn't put me in an necessarily hazardous situation (such as a diver panicking and trying to get air from a necklace primary)

 

[tbone1004]

Wow, tbone, considering PfcAJ and ucfdiver's position with GUE, I'd certainly be arguing my understanding of OW hose lengths and GUE OW training with them. Right.

not arguing with them, merely pointed out that at one time it was considered acceptable for recreational diving to not dive with a long hose, that was all I was saying. I think 7' is better than 32", and think 40+swivel is better than both for recreational diving, was merely pointing out that at one point in time, it was permitted within GUE to dive with a 32" primary hose for recreational diving

 

[PfcAJ]

Youre misreading. Gue has advocated the long hose from the beginning. The whole DIR thing...

It might not have always been 7, but it wasn't EVER 32" for the primary. It was never a part of any gue class.

The non stop pontificating about gue/dir stuff gets old when you really don't know what you're talking about. It seems like every few days you're writing some nonsense.

Stick with what you know about.

 

[cmrangel]

Hi all, the OP here. Thanks for all the responses and info.

I found a S560 at a good price and think may go for that as a second. It appears that the combination of MK25/S560 is not "certified" combo by Scubapro but the IP seems to be the same so I don't see how the combination could be an issue. Please let me know if you disagree!!

I am going to start with it on a 40" yellow hose with elbow and practice OOA drills. I may try and borrow a 7 and try that as well. If the 40 seems too short or I borrow/like a 7', I may change.

So, my starting point will be
MK25 w/S600 primary on 40" yellow hose w/elbow - routed under right arm.
S560 on necklace with 22" black hose as secondary

Like I mentioned, I will start with this and see how it goes practicing OOA and donating primary and switching to secondary

 

[Adobo]

...it was permitted within GUE to dive with a 32" primary hose for recreational diving

GUE doesn't own any of the divers its instructors trains.

As a GUE trained diver, you can do whatever the heck you want. You can smoke, you can solo dive, you can dive side mount and you can have 32" hoses. You don't have to check in with the GUE police periodically to prove that you are adhering to GUE standards.

What GUE does is it specifies pre-requisites for taking a class. For example, they ask that you be physically fit and be a non-smoker. If after the class, you want to start smoking and eat bacon at every meal, knock yourself out.

GUE also specifies equipment requirements for a class. Backplate, long hose primary, so on and so forth. If after the class, you want to dive with a Mares Convolution Air Trim, knock yourself out.

So, how you dive and how you are equipped after class is up to you. (Whether or not other GUE trained divers will want to dive with you if you are an out of shape smoker who is equipped with convoluted gear, that is a different story.) They do specify what equipment is required for taking a class. And for as long as I can remember (been looking at their class standards for 10 years), the equipment requirements have always specified 5' or 7' long hose.

And irrespective of what GUE says, if you had a gas emergency, would you want your buddy to be donating a reg attached to a 32" hose? I mean, it doesn't even pass the sanity test.

---------- Post added July 15th, 2015 at 10:25 AM ----------

It seems to me that the OP is being given advice which is really quite poor, bit from different systems banged together with only internet reasoning to support it.

I can see how this might be confusing. Let me separate out some pieces to help you understand.

There are two different things you are covering here. They are 1) Long hose on your primary regulator and necklaced backup regulator and 2)Donating the primary regulator. Let me tackle this in the reverse order.

Donating the primary regulator (Irrespective of what lenght hose is on this regulator)
I don’t know what agency you are affiliated with but any agency needs to be prepared to teach this. Why? Because scubapro has been for years pushing their Air2. So if you are a shop that is marketing your scuba pro BC/reg/instrument package, you need to teach people how to donate their primary reg. Because donating an Air2 in a gas emergency is a recipe for disaster.

Can we at least agree on this?

Long hose on your primary regulator and necklaced backup regulator
I don't know your level of familiarity with it but it is far from "banged together with only internet reasoning to support it.” It is a configuration that is taught by at least 2 US based agencies in their recreational diving programs. Further, I know that several (if not most) technical diving agencies specify this configuration in their technical diving programs for divers with backmount tanks.

Locally, I belong to a dive club that uses this configuration as a standard. Collectively, many thousands of dives have been done by our dive club - ranging from simple 30 ft shore dives to more complex 250ft+ technical dives.

Every single recreational diver in the club (maybe 50 divers are recreational divers only) dives this configuration. At least, when they are participating in club dives.

OP, find some responsible physical person backed by an agency (choose any) to teach you how to configure and use your setup. Use a tried and tested (by a significant number of people) system.

There are subtle features of some systems which when missed out when the headline features are adopted break things. Use a whole system, not cherry picked bits of many.

This is a very good point. Like you, I am not a big fan of people learning to dive from the internet. Switching hose lengths and changing the OOG emergency procedure has its consequences that might not be apparent to even a seasoned diver. My personal participation in this thread was to 1) clarify some potentially misleading comments posted by another person and 2) to answer your question of what the benefits of long hose primary and necklaced back up are as compared to the other configuration you suggested.

 

[KenGordon]

GUE doesn't own any of the divers its instructors trains.

As a GUE trained diver, you can do whatever the heck you want. You can smoke, you can solo dive, you can dive side mount and you can have 32" hoses. You don't have to check in with the GUE police periodically to prove that you are adhering to GUE standards.

What GUE does is it specifies pre-requisites for taking a class. For example, they ask that you be physically fit and be a non-smoker. If after the class, you want to start smoking and eat bacon at every meal, knock yourself out.

GUE also specifies equipment requirements for a class. Backplate, long hose primary, so on and so forth. If after the class, you want to dive with a Mares Convolution Air Trim, knock yourself out.

So, how you dive and how you are equipped after class is up to you. (Whether or not other GUE trained divers will want to dive with you if you are an out of shape smoker who is equipped with convoluted gear, that is a different story.) They do specify what equipment is required for taking a class. And for as long as I can remember (been looking at their class standards for 10 years), the equipment requirements have always specified 5' or 7' long hose.

And irrespective of what GUE says, if you had a gas emergency, would you want your buddy to be donating a reg attached to a 32" hose? I mean, it doesn't even pass the sanity test.

---------- Post added July 15th, 2015 at 10:25 AM ----------



I can see how this might be confusing. Let me separate out some pieces to help you understand.

There are two different things you are covering here. They are 1) Long hose on your primary regulator and necklaced backup regulator and 2)Donating the primary regulator. Let me tackle this in the reverse order.

Donating the primary regulator (Irrespective of what lenght hose is on this regulator)
I don’t know what agency you are affiliated with but any agency needs to be prepared to teach this. Why? Because scubapro has been for years pushing their Air2. So if you are a shop that is marketing your scuba pro BC/reg/instrument package, you need to teach people how to donate their primary reg. Because donating an Air2 in a gas emergency is a recipe for disaster.

Can we at least agree on this?

Long hose on your primary regulator and necklaced backup regulator
I don't know your level of familiarity with it but it is far from "banged together with only internet reasoning to support it.” It is a configuration that is taught by at least 2 US based agencies in their recreational diving programs. Further, I know that several (if not most) technical diving agencies specify this configuration in their technical diving programs for divers with backmount tanks.

Locally, I belong to a dive club that uses this configuration as a standard. Collectively, many thousands of dives have been done by our dive club - ranging from simple 30 ft shore dives to more complex 250ft+ technical dives.

Every single recreational diver in the club (maybe 50 divers are recreational divers only) dives this configuration. At least, when they are participating in club dives.



This is a very good point. Like you, I am not a big fan of people learning to dive from the internet. Switching hose lengths and changing the OOG emergency procedure has its consequences that might not be apparent to even a seasoned diver. My personal participation in this thread was to 1) clarify some potentially misleading comments posted by another person and 2) to answer your question of what the benefits of long hose primary and necklaced back up are as compared to the other configuration you suggested.

Do you think a 40 inch hose is a long hose? It sounds like it from that reply.

I asked to compare two configurations which both had 40 inch hoses, one as a primary as you promote and one as a secondary which I think every rec agency promotes.

I am not attacking the use of a 7ft primary (ie long hose) but of a 40 inch primary.

 

[Adobo]

Do you think a 40 inch hose is a long hose? It sounds like it from that reply.

I asked to compare two configurations which both had 40 inch hoses, one as a primary as you promote and one as a secondary which I think every rec agency promotes.

I am not attacking the use of a 7ft primary (ie long hose) but of a 40 inch primary.

I see. My mistake.

I myself have never used a 40" hose on my primary. But if my choices were:

1) 40" hose on primary reg + 22" hose on a backup reg which is on a necklace

or

2) any configuration wherein I donate an octo to an out of gas diver (or the oog diver takes my octo or whatever)

I would go with option 1. The reasons are as follows:

• I am prepared to donate what I am breathing to my buddy at any given time.
• I am prepared for my buddy to take what I am breathing at any given time.
• In this configuration, if my buddy needs gas, he knows where to find a reg that works. Its in my mouth. I also *always* know where there is another reg if my primary reg is donated or taken away. That other reg is bungeed right under my chin.

I am not an instructor. But if a friend or a relative asked me what I would want them to do, I would tell them to find an instructor who will teach them to the level of proficiency in diving that they could donate their primary reg in an emergency. Then I would tell them that in my opinion, the absolute best way to go is to have a *long* hose on their primary and a necklaced back up.

 

[KenGordon]

most time, when panic sets in training goes out the window. A panicked OOA diver and just a regular OOA diver are two different things. I was addressing a panicked OOA diver who would likely seek the nearest air source... either the surface or your working reg.

These comments are not long hose vs. short hose... but the question you raised raised



The disadvantages i've noted, i see no advantage to having it that way. The major disadvantage being in case of dealing with a panicked OOA diver both you you can end up reg-less (the bungee would be to short for the other person to breathe from, and it would be out of your mouth). Might as well leave the bungee off in that case.

What would be the benefit of necklacing a primary anyways, we necklace our secondary for storage when it is not in use and easier access when it is required. Your primary is always supposed to be in use, no point necklacing it.

So I should remove my neckless if I have no deco gas?

You know there are necklesses which breakaway easily if you need to dive with a panic prone diver.

Btw I am not insistent on a neckless, a simple primary/octo combo is perfectly fine. It also has advantages in optionally routing the octo to the left and so avoiding the annoying kink.

 

[Adobo]

So I should remove my neckless if I have no deco gas?

You know there are necklesses which breakaway easily if you need to dive with a panic prone diver.

I don't know if we are talking about the same thing now. When I say a back up regulator on a necklace, I am referring to this (both of these pics are random pics I pulled from the interwebs):



This is what it looks like on a diver (the reg on the bottom):



The pic above is pretty much what regs look like irrespective of the dive - including 30ft reef dives like the ones I did in Maui a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know what the definition of break away is but my back up reg is not coming off the bungee necklace unless there is a lot of tugging and pulling from another diver.