New Bungee / Long hose setup - Questions

[phoenix31tt]

Would someone like to explain the particular advantages of that over a necklaced primary and a 40 inch octopus to be taken by an OOG diver or donated by the rescuer?

1. You'd have to find a place to route and store that 40" anyways. Finding a place to route and store it effectively will lead you back into what is typically thought (golden triangle?) and all the issues that that brings
2. The common belief is that an OOA diver would go for or feel more comfortable with the regulator in your mouth, imagine him going for the regulator in your mouth and trying to pull your short hosed bungie
3. When an OOA diver takes the long hose (your primary) you simply use the bungeed reg.

Long hose in your mouth greatly reduced the risk of a panicked OOA diver endangering both you and himself if he happens to go for the reg in your mouth. If he happens to go for the bungeed secondary he wont get it and you'd just hand him your long hose out of your mouth.

 

[Adobo]

why? You denying that they did it or just don't like any post where I mention GUE?

"Shallow open water divers who do not use a long hose commonly use a standard 32” (81.3 cm) hose."

Taken straight from the current equipment configuration page in the hoses section.

Tbone,

I can appreciate that you have good intentions with your replies. I think what is tricky in your situation is that what you know about GUE, if I understand correctly, is based on what you read here and there as opposed to first hand knowledge.

It seems to me that you have a decent understanding of how you dive or how you would recommend someone else to dive. If your recommendations are based on sound principles and are vetted through your own experiences, then I believe it will be easy enough for you to support your recommendations with explanations of these principles as well as with citing specific examples of your own experiences that show that your recommendations are sound.

To refer to GUE as a reason for recommending something is in the first place, weak. Something isn't necessarily right just because GUE does it that way. The rationale behind why GUE or any other agency recommends something, that is really what is important. In the second place, without having first hand experience taking GUE classes, you can't really have the context of what you read about GUE classes or GUE standards.

Does that make sense?

For what its worth, I've taken some GUE classes and yet I never feel comfortable saying that someone should do something a specific way because GUE does it that way. Either what I recommend makes sense and I can defend it or it doesn't make sense. In my view, adding GUE to the discussion neither adds nor takes away from the validity of my recommendations.

 

[KenGordon]

Benefit of donating your primary as opposed to an octo
When your buddy needs gas, he needs gas. The reg in your mouth has gas. You and your OOG buddy know that because you were just breathing the reg. You also know where that primary reg is because, you know, you were just breathing that reg.

If your OOG buddy comes to your for gas and your plan is to donate a tucked octopus, who knows what its state is. Perhaps you will easily find the octo, easily deploy it, and it delivers gas. Perhaps not. Perhaps you will not be able to easily find the octo (what happened to my buddy when I went to him the one time I ever ran out of gas). Perhaps the hose is caught on something. Perhaps your buddy doesn't even have the wherewithal to signal out of gas and just grabs the thing out of your mouth. (A bungied primary is gonna suck really bad in that scenario.)

Benefit of having your backup reg on a necklace
Once you give your primary reg to an OOG buddy, you don't want to doodle around looking for a tucked backup. You need your backup reg to be always at the same place and easily accessible. A tucked octopus is neither *easily* accessible nor is it guaranteed to be exactly where you think it is.

What do you mean by 'tucked'?

Obviously an octopus must be visible, available and held away from the bottom. Let's assume a competent diver so we can leave out the 'perhaps'.

---------- Post added July 14th, 2015 at 10:49 PM ----------

1. You'd have to find a place to route and store that 40" anyways. Finding a place to route and store it effectively will lead you back into what is typically thought (golden triangle?) and all the issues that that brings
2. The common belief is that an OOA diver would go for or feel more comfortable with the regulator in your mouth, imagine him going for the regulator in your mouth and trying to pull your short hosed bungie
3. When an OOA diver takes the long hose (your primary) you simply use the bungeed reg.

Long hose in your mouth greatly reduced the risk of a panicked OOA diver endangering both you and himself if he happens to go for the reg in your mouth. If he happens to go for the bungeed secondary he wont get it and you'd just hand him your long hose out of your mouth.

A lot of primary taking by the OOG diver here, who trained them to do that?

Btw, I don't think this is strictly a long hose discussion.

'Typically thought'? You mean as taught by most agencies and so the expected configuration?

I wouldn't argue with a primary donated long hose as the stowage advantage is real, but for a short hose this seems just like a random collection of techniques and kit configs flung together with a couple of major disadvantages:

Non standard in any system (or course I can't claim to know all systems so I could be wrong) and so unexpected and unfamiliar to a new buddy.

Involves taking a reg out of the donor's mouth so putting two people at increased risk.

Requires the donor to pay attention and notice the issue.

It is still a short hose so none of the typical hog loop advantages like space or ease of replacement to make up for the disadvantages.

 

[Adobo]

What do you mean by 'tucked'?

Obviously an octopus must be visible, available and held away from the bottom. Let's assume a competent diver so we can leave out the 'perhaps'.

I've seen octos secured two different ways - one is some sort of clip that secures the second stage to the diver's BC. The other way is, some BCs have pockets where you can "tuck" the octo hose. In either case, I think the idea is that if you grab the octo second stage, the entire thing should deploy easily.

I see a couple of potential problems. First, if the octo gets uncliped or gets untucked, who knows where that regulator will be in the case of emergency. Or, even if it stays clipped, the diver might not find it the first time he reaches for it. (This very thing happened to me on a dive. I went to my buddy, he reached for his octo and it wasn't exactly where he thought it was. In fact, the octo has gotten tangled in some kelp.) Second, I imagine that its possible for a tucked octo to get caught on something as you are deploying it.

One other thing... why assume that you or your dive buddy will be able to execute flawlessly in this situation (or to put in your words, is a competent buddy)? If someone is out of gas, the situation is already frantic. The last thing I would assume is that things will go perfect. Which is why you would want this stuff to be as brain dead simple as possible.

A lot of primary taking by the OOG diver here, who trained them to do that?

Any dive shop that pushes the scubapro BC/reg/air 2 package. Because you know, nobody is donating that air2 to an OOG diver.

And any dive shop that pushes an air2 similar combo backup reg/inflator. For the same reasons.

I wouldn't argue with a primary donated long hose as the stowage advantage is real, but for a short hose this seems just like a random collection of techniques and kit configs flung together with a couple of major disadvantages:

Non standard in any system (or course I can't claim to know all systems so I could be wrong) and so unexpected and unfamiliar to a new buddy.

Involves taking a reg out of the donor's mouth so putting two people at increased risk.

Requires the donor to pay attention and notice the issue.

It is still a short hose so none of the typical hog loop advantages like space or ease of replacement to make up for the disadvantages.

Its not fair to assume that your dive buddy was trained to take an octo in an OOG situation. As I mentioned, tons of divers are trained to take the primary in open water class.

But even if they were, this is how the conversation goes, "If you need gas, come to me, don't go bolt to the surface. Signal to me that you need gas and I will give you the reg out of my mouth. If you don't have the time/composure to signal, just take the reg out of my mouth." That's it. 15 second conversation.

Your reg can wind up out of your mouth for a hundred reasons. And uh, any diver that cannot take a reg out of their mouth without finding themselves in *danger* should not be a certified diver.

 

[phoenix31tt]

A lot of primary taking by the OOG diver here, who trained them to do that?

most time, when panic sets in training goes out the window. A panicked OOA diver and just a regular OOA diver are two different things. I was addressing a panicked OOA diver who would likely seek the nearest air source... either the surface or your working reg.

These comments are not long hose vs. short hose... but the question you raised raised

Would someone like to explain the particular advantages of that over a necklaced primary and a 40 inch octopus to be taken by an OOG diver or donated by the rescuer?

The disadvantages i've noted, i see no advantage to having it that way. The major disadvantage being in case of dealing with a panicked OOA diver both you you can end up reg-less (the bungee would be to short for the other person to breathe from, and it would be out of your mouth). Might as well leave the bungee off in that case.

What would be the benefit of necklacing a primary anyways, we necklace our secondary for storage when it is not in use and easier access when it is required. Your primary is always supposed to be in use, no point necklacing it.

 

[tbone1004]

Adobo, understood. I do regularly dive with GUE divers and have for many years, I have been trained by some of the original WKPP divers, and they have explained the how and why their either still dive certain parts of the configuration or went away from it. Just because GUE does it that way is not the reason for anything I do or have ever done, but the gear configuration page and their fundamentals book is some of the best quick literature around for the how and why. No other agency has published a page as thorough as this one.
https://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/equipment/config

If they have posted the statement I quoted above, it means that at one point is was considered acceptable to dive this way, their warm water config is the exact configuration I was trained in, Halcyon Eclipse 30 single tank rig, reg set with 32" primary, and 22" secondary. In this context I merely used the 32" hose from them as an example of something they used to teach, from my understanding they no longer teach that configuration preferring to go straight to a 7' hose, I disagree, but I'm glad they didn't remove the quote about the 32" hose from their equipment configuration page as it is a way to validate that configuration as a sanity check. Instead of going with a 22" and a 26" hose, they can reference that and go, "well GUE uses a 32" so I should probably consider that", then check the streamline OW and go "well Dive Rite recommends a 40" routed under the arm with an angle adapter", then think about which one might be better for them. 32" is a bit less streamlined because it bows out a bit, the Streamline OW is more streamlined with a longer hose but adds a failure point, pros and cons, up to the diver to figure out what is right, but just because I have never and will never take a GUE course *mainly due to the no solo policy that I am adamantly opposed to*, doesn't mean that I can't, or anyone else can't quote something straight from their book. I was trained by NAUI, I can start quoting their NTEC configuration, but it isn't as comprehensive as the GUE page because it is for technical only, GUE makes note of recreational diving options.

 

[PfcAJ]

why? You denying that they did it or just don't like any post where I mention GUE?

"Shallow open water divers who do not use a long hose commonly use a standard 32” (81.3 cm) hose."

Taken straight from the current equipment configuration page in the hoses section.

They didn't and don't teach anything with a 32inch hose. That paragraph describes what OW divers commonly use, which is a 32 inch hose.

"Shallow open water divers who do not use a long hose commonly use a standard 32” (81.3 cm) hose." Yeah, thats the normal OW hose config that's out there and what 99% of divers use around the world.

Furthermore, the only "ow" class GUE taught in the earlier days was fundamentals, and even that was done with a proper long hose. Rec Triox *might* have been taught in a single (I can't recall as it wasn't super popular) but that certainly didn't involve a 32'' hose.

A short hose primary and a short hose backup is dumb. A 40 inch hose is at least reasonable as its no worse (length wise) than donating a traditional octo.

Idk who your 'wkpp' and 'gue' teachers/buddies/mentors are, but they aren't doing you any favors.

 

[ucfdiver]

Adobo, understood. I do regularly dive with GUE divers and have for many years, I have been trained by some of the original WKPP divers, and they have explained the how and why their either still dive certain parts of the configuration or went away from it. Just because GUE does it that way is not the reason for anything I do or have ever done, but the gear configuration page and their fundamentals book is some of the best quick literature around for the how and why. No other agency has published a page as thorough as this one.
https://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/equipment/config

You consistently post false information about GUE/WKPP standards, historical and current. Which member exactly are you getting this information from?

All WKPP contacts can be found at the following URL, including my personal email address and AJ's...If you would ever like clarification on any WKPP procedure, gear standard, whatever, please email one of us directly and we can either tell you the correct answer or research it and get back with you. It's worth the time to ensure a new scuba diver doesn't get the wrong information.
Team Contacts | WKPP

 

[KenGordon]

I've seen octos secured two different ways - one is some sort of clip that secures the second stage to the diver's BC. The other way is, some BCs have pockets where you can "tuck" the octo hose. In either case, I think the idea is that if you grab the octo second stage, the entire thing should deploy easily.

I see a couple of potential problems. First, if the octo gets uncliped or gets untucked, who knows where that regulator will be in the case of emergency. Or, even if it stays clipped, the diver might not find it the first time he reaches for it. (This very thing happened to me on a dive. I went to my buddy, he reached for his octo and it wasn't exactly where he thought it was. In fact, the octo has gotten tangled in some kelp.) Second, I imagine that its possible for a tucked octo to get caught on something as you are deploying it.

One other thing... why assume that you or your dive buddy will be able to execute flawlessly in this situation (or to put in your words, is a competent buddy)? If someone is out of gas, the situation is already frantic. The last thing I would assume is that things will go perfect. Which is why you would want this stuff to be as brain dead simple as possible.



Any dive shop that pushes the scubapro BC/reg/air 2 package. Because you know, nobody is donating that air2 to an OOG diver.

And any dive shop that pushes an air2 similar combo backup reg/inflator. For the same reasons.




Its not fair to assume that your dive buddy was trained to take an octo in an OOG situation. As I mentioned, tons of divers are trained to take the primary in open water class.

But even if they were, this is how the conversation goes, "If you need gas, come to me, don't go bolt to the surface. Signal to me that you need gas and I will give you the reg out of my mouth. If you don't have the time/composure to signal, just take the reg out of my mouth." That's it. 15 second conversation.

Your reg can wind up out of your mouth for a hundred reasons. And uh, any diver that cannot take a reg out of their mouth without finding themselves in *danger* should not be a certified diver.

You need to get out more if you have only seen two ways to control an octo.

By competent I do not mean the God of donating gas but rather able to avoid dragging regs along the bottom or route an octo hose under a direct feed or whatever. This will have been thought at the first level.

The agency I use teaches secondary TAKE so the donor is only involved at the buddy check. They used to teach secondary DONATE but through a process of accident analysis over the years decided to change. I think that secondary take is usual in recreational agencies now and it is what I find to be expected when diving with random individuals.

When you go into the air2 shop do they really say 'in the event of an OOG just wait for the OOG diver to TAKE the primary from your mouth then switch to the air2.' Or perhaps they tell you to DONATE the primary?

I don't know of any agency which teaches TAKING from the mouth of a donor as a response. The panic mitigation for primary DONATE is having more or less competent divers who notice a problem when low on gas and so are able to ask for gas at a time which is good for the donor.

There is more risk in swapping regulators than not swapping regulators. For example you may end up with a free flow which could be a disaster in a buddy pair with one OOG diver already.

It seems to me that the OP is being given advice which is really quite poor, bit from different systems banged together with only internet reasoning to support it.

OP, find some responsible physical person backed by an agency (choose any) to teach you how to configure and use your setup. Use a tried and tested (by a significant number of people) system.

There are subtle features of some systems which when missed out when the headline features are adopted break things. Use a whole system, not cherry picked bits of many.

The idea of learning how to donate gas via the Internet is a standing joke and an example of where believing what some random individuals who shout loudest will get you.

 

[tbone1004]

Exact quote from the fundamentals book in 2006 referencing long hose
Optional in shallow, open water diving where there is direct access to the surface and no requirement to travel any considerable distance while sharing gas.

I did say they don't do that anymore, but it used to be acceptable for recreational type diving, that's all I was saying