NAUI versus PADI

[Diver0001]

How does that work in different environmental conditions? For example, Northern Norway versus Palau. Drysuits are essentially a given in Norway so do students have to buy a drysuit class when they take OW or can an instructor fail them in OW because their buoyancy control in a drysuit is dangerous?

Drysuit can be integrated into the OW course.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm not a NAUI instructor, rather a NAUI DM candidate within the dive program at an AAUS academic institution, both of which organizations allow local higher or additional standards, and I have not read the NAUI OW instructor manual.

Some items in the NAUI policy and standards manual, under OW (Scuba) diver, include:
- Hover without support or significant movement
- Hover at a depth of approximately 15 feet (4.6 m) for three minutes
- If wearing a standard buckle type weight belt and submerged in a prone position at the
bottom or while hovering, adjust the position of the weight system so that the ballast is evenly distributed.
- If wearing a weight-integrated weight system, and submerged in a prone position at the
bottom or while hovering, remove and replace at least one weight pocket, if permitted by the weight system. If necessary, assistance is allowed to replace the weight pocket.
- Dive using skills that have a minimal impact on the environment
- Share air as both a donor and a receiver from an octopus or alternate breathing source (not buddy breathing) during ascents in confined water and from a minimum depth of 15 feet (4.6 m) to the surface in open water
- Bring a diver simulating unconsciousness to the surface from a depth of approximately 10 feet (3 m), remove victim’s weight system, mask and snorkel; simulate in-water rescue breathing.

So air share mid water while (safely) ascending, hovering, and weight adjust/remove/replace; though not that I see BC remove/replace. I’d note that the PADI weight remove/replace is for all or part of the weight system. So a stricter rule on air share done neutral, but no BC remove that I see. Yet safely bringing an unconscious buddy to the surface requires good buoyancy control of two peoples BCs and wetsuits. And continuing their rescue is fairly good on safety. All these are confined and open water skills. I do not understand any of these to be new efforts.

The overarching standard that I recall is would you be happy for them to dive with your family, and the academic freedom to enforce that, not just teach it. But all I currently find is for instructors that you ‘would allow that person to teach their loved ones to dive.’ Which appears as the first item in the credo. Not that that directly addresses whether skills on knees are fine. Though if you require air share during an ascent, allowing descent to the bottom to clear a mask would seem inconsistent. NAUI does say that they establish 'minimum standards', and instructors may 'exceed NAUI standards in ways that do not jeopardize student safety.' As was pointed out by other anecdotes, I am sure there are NAUI instructors that violate standards, as with most organizations. There are mechanisms to correct that.

I think we would need an instructor for more, particularly guidance about teaching. My experience assisting is in a post OW context, and usually post AOW, and is more about safely working underwater doing science, for example counting kelp and invertebrates. We test skills midwater in the ocean, but that might just be us and/or us within AAUS.

Edit:
The integrated weight remove/replace description is new to at least the 2017 standards, the rest appear at least as far back as the 2012.

Can you describe what efforts are being made agency-wise to teach initial skills while neutrally buoyant rather than on the knees? I don't know many NAUI instructors, but the ones I do know do it on the knees.

 

[MichaelMc]

Can you describe what efforts are being made agency-wise to teach initial skills while neutrally buoyant rather than on the knees? I don't know many NAUI instructors, but the ones I do know do it on the knees.

Mostly I do not know, I think it is somewhat mixed. I was at one local meeting by the NAUI regional rep, but neutral skills teaching was not a topic I recall, but it might have been. I can half recall some descriptions of teaching on knees in side conversations, but I could not swear by it. My DM requirements were foremost in my mind at the time.

Two of the initial skills above, ascending air share and unconscious rescue, must inherently be tested off the knees. Though not explicitly the air share start, as I read it.

An issue raised was the skills of the instructors, which might inform what could then be expected of students.
The current NAUI DM standards, as part of the instructor path, require:
- Buddy breathing with a four minute swim, half as donor half as recipient, but the start is not explicitly off the bottom. I recall this as written by NAUI as no mask for each recipient once breathing was initiated. There is also a shared air/octo version in addition/prior.
- There is a pool scuba unit ditch, turn air off, horizontal 25' swim away with just weights and fins, surface, submerge, swim back, don. It is on the bottom, but with weight adjusted for proper buoyancy, which makes kneeling a bit hard, and kneeling is not really useful.
- The pool bailout, jump in with air off, reg out, gear and weights in arms and don, describes settle to the bottom, though you must do a surface tread after with no BC air to demonstrate you were not overweighted.
- Underwater BC and separately weight system remove/replace describes on the bottom. Maybe just as distinct from surface, but it does not say neutral.
All to demonstration quality. The instructor water skill tests occur at the AI and DM levels. I recall pool bailout being also a master diver skill, but do not find it that way in my current manuals. I used to have an older one as well.

We need a NAUI instructor for more current info. Mine are not on scubaboard, and mostly do not teach OW, acting/teaching maybe primarily in their roles as AAUS institutional diving officers. We’re on summer break here as well.

 

[The Chairman]

when you are using a specific system

I am not using that "system", so I am free to use the term how the rest of the world uses it. I don't redefine neutral buoyancy so that I can achieve it and I don't redefine competency either. They are my goal, focus and reputation and I wouldn't want any misunderstanding in regards to them. If someone is not understanding or worse, twisting my words then I am more apt to choose different words rather than attempt disambiguation. Say what you mean and mean what you say. In that regard, I'm sure I don't understand how John wants me to use mastery. All I know is the difference I see between mastery and competency and am choosing the latter. It's not that I don't care or think his system is inferior to mine. My system works well for me and anyone can understand it without having to redefine the terms. I like that.

I was at one local meeting by the regional rep, but neutral skills teaching was not a topic I recall, but it might have been.

Early on, and I can't remember the specific year, I was reported for teaching OW neutrally at Alexander Springs. The basin was covered in classes, so I was forced to have them do their skills above the heads of the other students. That was no small task but I was pleased as punch that getting them neutral in the pool really paid off. The area rep pulled me aside at DEMA and grilled me about what happened. Apparently, another NAUI instructor had complained and he was checking it out. It left a bad taste in my mouth and is one of the reasons I left NAUI. No formal write up happened, at least not to my knowledge.

The Scuba Industry tends to eat its own. Change things around and they want your head. It's most every agency out there and I hate it. The inane comments that were deleted from this thread show the need a few have to tear others down. I don't get it and I won't be a part of it. Find a system that works for you and work it. Change it if you can to your needs and desires or find another system.

I don't feel particularly good about instructors who "go beyond the standards" in the sense of requiring (and not just offering) additional skills for certification.

Good for you. Personally, I don't want a student who's not willing to go the extra mile, so we'll never have to put up with each other in a class. It's important that students find the instructor or mentor that suits them. Agencies don't teach you how to dive: instructors do.

 

[Diver0001]

I think we're getting a little lost in semantics.

Just putting it back in context, it's pretty clear what PADI means when they say "mastery". The student must be able to perform the skill repeatedly, correctly and fluidly. John pointed out the origins of the term and how PADI arrived at this definition but that doesn't matter where the rubber meets the road. The definition is clear.

Pete is using the term "competency". It comes across to me as a semantic argument but if I follow his thinking then Pete is talking about the student fully "automating" or "internalizing" the skill to the point where it is no longer requiring much attention to perform it.

If you put it in a frame that includes Maslow's 4 stages of competence then I think the semantic difference becomes clear. The definition of "mastery" will put the student into at least the stage of "conscious competence". Pete would appear to be arguing that true competence can only (?) be achieved if the student has reached the stage of "unconscious competence".

So if we stop arguing about the definitions of the words then I think it's easier to understand the differences in perspective like this.

R..

 

[The Chairman]

Pete is using the term "competency". It comes across to me as a semantic argument but if I follow his thinking then Pete is talking about the student fully "automating" or "internalizing" the skill to the point where it is no longer requiring much attention to perform it.

No. Again it's back to the piano. Can I hit a mid C? Sure. Dink, dink, dink. Can I hit a C sharp? Watch me now! Dink#, dink#, dink#. I have indeed mastered the skill to hitting those notes. I might even master several octaves of identifying and playing each of these skills (notes) with superb mastery. Bravo! You are still not competent to play Rhapsody in Blue! Competency comes when you are able to choose the skill you need when you need it and then execute it without being asked to. If I have to ask my students to inflate their BCs on the surface, then though they can do it, they haven't proven they have the competency to do it when it's needed. Oh great, you can clear your mask. Why then are you swimming around with a fogged mask half full of water? I don't want a student who merely masters the skill: I want a diver who knows when to use those skills and isn't afraid to do so. The difference is that you're looking at the individual trees while I'm attending to the forest as a whole.

This problem isn't agency specific. It's not a PADI, NAUI or SDI issue. It's a cultural problem. We want a checklist. I want to buy eggs, scallions, shrooms, spinach, green peppers and ham. It's still not an omelet unless I have the competence to combine all of those ingredients and cook it just right. You can check all the skills you want. Define their mastery till the cows go home. Until they can put them together without my assistance, they're not a competent diver.

 

[Diver0001]

Ok, now I get it. In my day job I'm a project manager. One of the things every project manager has to learn at project management school is Prince2. It's a process.

I have a colleague, let's call him "Charlie". Charlie knows Prince2 inside and out. I think he may be able to quote the entire book. Is he a good project manager? No. He's abysmal. That's because there is a LOT more to running a successful project than following the process but Charlie doesn't understand that and what he ends up doing time after time is making a GORGEOUS dossier of why he failed to deliver his project to the client's expectations. (alas, this is actually a true story).

He's "Mastered" Prince2 to a level that I probably never will (and wouldn't want to) but he still can't manage a project.

That kind of sounds like what you're talking about. About pulling together diverse bits of information and integrating that into the practice of diving, using logic, intuition, your skills, your creativity and reacting adequately to the cues and events happening at a given point during the dive.

I actually had a long ... let's call it a "debate" with my CD when I was becoming an instructor and it was for this very reason. I recognized the PADI process as being comparable to Prince2 for projects. I knew that "following process" wasn't enough to deliver a successful project so I was pretty sure that following process wasn't going to be enough to make a successful diver. In that sense I totally agree. That's why I like the neutral teaching techniques so much. It puts the skills together in a "diving" context and doesn't isolate them from the big picture. I think this is what you're trying to explain about your own approach as well.

Doing this, however, does not mitigate the necessity of teaching individual skills to some bar. In the case of PADI they are very clear where the bar is set: repeatable, correct and fluid. So even if you are pulling it all together in a holistic context, the students will still undoubtedly have to "master" skills along the way.

R..

 

[The Chairman]

It appears you've really gotten the gist of it. Thanks for that.

Doing this, however, does not mitigate the necessity of teaching individual skills to some bar.

Firstly, in the case of NASE, all skills are to be "mastered", ie learned, neutrally. The pool is the place to learn skills in that context. Secondly, the task is not just to teach the skill, but to impart when the skill should be used. When do you clear your mask? Why, when there's water in it, of course. What's obvious to the seasoned veteran is not so obvious to a noob. My job is to season that crap out of a noob so they don't look like a noob.

So why the huge emphasis on being neutral? Is it the adjective du jour for the agency? No. It's all about removing obstacles to learning. When a student does not feel in control of their dive, they are distracted. They feel like they are free falling in the water and they can not stop worrying about being hurt. Irrational? Not to me. It's like riding a bike and feeling you're going to fall at any moment. Your exquisite demonstration of proper ankling is being lost because they are trying not to kiss the pavement. Putting them on their knees does not give them a feeling of control when they are diving just as training wheels can't impart balance to the cyclist. Their knuckles are still white with fear and they are trying in vain to not kiss that pavement.

Remove the fear and you've removed the biggest obstacle to learning how to dive. Getting your student into proper trim and teaching them buoyancy is the quickest way to do this. Once they "master" that, simply add each skill onto their trim and buoyancy. You'll find that their comprehension and ability to mimic you has increased almost exponentially. You won't have to focus so much on each skill as they become almost intuitive for the in control student.

Sorry for the ramble, but here's the payoff. Instead of simply making your students do these skills over again in serial fashion when you hit OW, make them put them together into a dive! Help them to measure their SAC so they can do real time planning using their PDC. Is their mask always dry? Simply watch and you'll see a competent diver clearing it without you asking them to. Are they adhering to the limits set out before the dive? Are they communicating turn pressures with their buddy before the dive and signaling them about it during? My serial skills are done in the pool. In OW, we be diving. It's time for them to show off what they have learned. You can bet I'm going to "run out of air" before the dive is over. But that emergency skill is done in situ as much as possible.

Learn the skills in the pool: show them off in OW.

I feel I'm rambling. I hope I've answered your concerns. Out diving for fossil sharks teeth here in Venice Fl has left me fatigued. I may rewrite this in the am.

 

[oly5050user]

As someone who has taken a lot of courses, but who is not an instructor, I don't feel particularly good about instructors who "go beyond the standards" in the sense of requiring (and not just offering) additional skills for certification. There is an expectation going into a course that it will be taught to standards. That is, you are taught the skills that are in the book, and if you perform them adequately (correctly, repeatedly, and fluidly for the level of diving that you are seeking certification for), you'll receive the card. There is a lot of thought and collective wisdom put into those standards by the certification agency and for a single instructor to think he knows better and require his students to do more borders on hubris for me. If you really think the standards are insufficient, work to get them changed.

Actually if an instructor taught beyond standards , such as introducing a skill that PADI does not list as a performance requirement for the level of diving being taught,and required student to perform to them for certification , and withholds certification if student has issues with it, that instructor is violating standards and may have some explaining to do if an incident arises from it.

 

[oly5050user]

How does that work in different environmental conditions? For example, Northern Norway versus Palau. Drysuits are essentially a given in Norway so do students have to buy a drysuit class when they take OW or can an instructor fail them in OW because their buoyancy control in a drysuit is dangerous?

Student not required to take a dry suit class, BUT must complete a orientation pool session in one and perform same buoyancy control requirements as if they are in a wet suit .