NAUI versus PADI

[MichaelMc]

@boulderjohn, You can read PADI standards to dictate doing skills with control of neutral buoyancy, which I support. And even mid water. But must you? As was said, mastery is ‘as would be expected of a diver at that certification level’. I might not expect much unless I’m told to.

CW-5 has items for making efforts to avoid contact with the sensitive bottom and to respond to OOA and mask flood in the final mini-dive. And explicitly says to practice with emphasis on neutral buoyancy, hovering and swimming. Yet it does not say OOA drill is not a reason that trumps the sensitive bottom efforts, and maybe I do not expect mid water OOA of OW divers. Rather hard to defend that position for OOA and mask clear, as any such OOA or flooded divers would be at great risk mid water until they had a chance to settle to the bottom with their chosen air donor.

It is possible to defend that I just do not expect neutral or midwater BC or weight remove/replace of OW divers. Particularly as I often see divers I think could not do it fluid and comfortably, or at all. It says in one case to do those on the bottom, why not in all cases.

The link is not as explicit as something like ’for final skill evaluation, never touch the bottom unless explicitly mentioned to do so.’ I think that follows for all the skills, but it is not explicit. While we are on it, it seems best to nail down all the objections. (Sorry, my two siblings are lawyers.)

(Edit to fix typo: BC or weight remove)

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@boulderjohn, You can read PADI standards to dictate doing skills with control of neutral buoyancy, which I support. And even mid water. But must you? As was said, mastery is ‘as would be expected of a diver at that certification level’. I might not expect much unless I’m told to.

CW-5 has items for making efforts to avoid contact with the sensitive bottom and to respond to OOA and mask flood in the final mini-dive. And explicitly says to practice with emphasis on neutral buoyancy, hovering and swimming. Yet it does not say OOA drill is not a reason that trumps the sensitive bottom efforts, and maybe I do not expect mid water OOA of OW divers. Rather hard to defend that position for OOA and mask clear, as any such OOA or flooded divers would be at great risk mid water until they had a chance to settle to the bottom with their chosen air donor.

It is possible to defend that I just do not expect neutral or midwater BC or weight remove/replace of OW divers. Particularly as I often see divers I think could not do it fluid and comfortably, or at all. It says in one case to do those on the bottom, why not in all cases.

The link is not as explicit as something like ’for final skill evaluation, never touch the bottom unless explicitly mentioned to do so.’ I think that follows for all the skills, but it is not explicit. While we are on it, it seems best to nail down all the objections. (Sorry, my two siblings are lawyers.)

(Edit to fix typo: BC or weight remove)

I do not see why not teach everything midwater. There are a number of reasons for this. First, students spend more time in a trim position from which they will perform skills just they would while actual diving. Second, the utilization of practicing shoots way up. Instead of the number of instructors divided by the number of students being the upper bound of the fraction of time in which students practice, students spend almost all water time practicing buoyancy control and/or performing skills. Third, they develop fewer habits.

An interesting thing about underwater scuba kit removal and replacement: I helped out another instructor who taught on the knees. He had me demo that skill. So I did it midwater. And so did all the students. Were they fluid and comfortable? No. They had not much time practicing buoyancy and they were all overweighted and not trim.

I consider that a small victory and a bit of proof that it can be done. Instructors just have to be willing to try.

 

[RainPilot]

Last week I was doing the deep dives for two AOW students. The wreck we use here has the sand at 110' and the deck at around 85'. We were cruising along the side of the ship around halfway between the deck and sand, with me just behind and above my students.

I saw a single diver coming the other way at deck level, seemed a bit odd (solo diving isn't a big thing here) so I glanced around to see if I could spot a buddy. Just ahead of my guys I see a diver heading briskly down to the sand. Red flags start going off in my head and I start swimming closer in case this is going to turn into a rescue. They hit the bottom in a perfect "Skills-kneel", tilt the head back and clear their mask, and then swim back up to the buddy again.

I had heard the argument of "if they can only do skills kneeling then they won't be able to do them swimming" before but never felt that was particularly compelling. Now I know there's at least one diver out there.

The upside was, my two students had come through my OW course and learned from the start to be neutral, when we were back on the boat they both turned to me and commented on how glad they were to have never kneeled, based on this poor soul who REALLY got short changed by every instructor they have had.

 

[The Chairman]

I think IDC's/IE's that required instructor candidates to master skills while midwater would result in fewer instructors being churned out, as it is harder.

I believe that once you see it done right or figure it out on your own, you'll change your mind. It's simply not harder nor does it require a better instructor. When I first started teaching neutral, I had several critics. It's not that they didn't like the concept, but they thought I was lying about it. They kept demanding how did I do it. I had no answer for them. except that I just didn't kneel. Everything else was the same, only mid-water. I think my first descriptor was "I teach from the top down, not the bottom up". It was not unusual for posters to be condescending towards me or even call me an out right liar. They were looking for a magic spell and none was needed. Just-don't-kneel. I felt this was no harder than teaching on the knees and I still do.

Since then, my classes have evolved and much of that was due to crossing over to NASE. The concept of competency over mastery was subtle, but it's made a huge difference in how I teach. Instead of merely focusing on finite bits of skill "mastery", I have a much broader picture to work towards. I fondly remember an early student of mine telling me about their first dive. They were expecting the DM to ask them to do skills. How funny. How sad. In my intensity to produce a superior diver, I made them think that diving was all about skills and not about having fun. That made me want to evolve and NASE's focus on competency over mastery gave me the needed direction to go. So I thought about my concept of a great diver.

• Horizontal (in trim)
• In control
• Close to the bottom
• Frog kick
• Slow and methodical
• No effin danglies!
• Confident
• Horizontal (in trim)

That's my list. That's my goal. Every skill I teach is dedicated to producing that kind of diver. Every mask clear. Every fin kick. Moreover, I am aware that I have to set the example on each and every dive, including in the pool. They want to dive just like me: monkey see = monkey do. They can't be what they can't see, so I make every fin kick and mask clear my very best. My students are watching! If I want to produce a competent diver, then I have to be a competent diver. The best part is that this attitude makes the rest of my job incredibly easy. Instead of spending hours describing a skill, I demonstrate and they replicate. The more they imitate, the easier it becomes for them, especially if they are in control from the beginning. But they have to be in control for this to work. A diver who is not in control is constantly distracted by that very thing. Make no doubt about it, being out of control is a huge distraction. Give them the skill to be in control at the very beginning and now you have their full attention through the rest of the class and teaching becomes a cinch. In other words, teaching it neutral can be a lot easier than the traditional way of teaching classes.It is for me.

 

[Diver0001]

I don't know if you feel that I'm perpetuating these myths. I believe that there is a strong correlation to mastery never happening and students being planted on the knees. Fixing one will fix the other.

Training on the knees slows the learning process. This is true.

Put another way, given the same amount of time, an instructor who trains while neutrally buoyant will achieve better results than one that trains on the knees.

Your point about ratios is valid, but I would say it applies to all instruction, not just neutral instruction. There is a shop near where I live that typically runs groups of 8 or 10 students. I know some of the people who work there and some of them are experienced instructors albeit still instructors who train on the knees and are not yet learning these more efficient approaches. When we encounter them at the lake and I see their students under water, it is exactly what you would expect. The buoyancy control isn't there, they do not swim horizontally, they are too close to the bottom, plowing up silt as they go.... I even saw one last week who was almost vertical in the water and "cycle" kicking to the point that it looked like she was trying to walk around as opposed to swimming. I'm not entirely sure that last example was one of their students but I thought it might be.

In short, it's a mess, but why is this happening?

Two of those instructors used to work at the shop where I work now. One of them in particular is a decent instructor and I believe that given enough time his results could be adequate even with teaching from the knees..... IF he wasn't teaching 8 people at a time. He simply needs more time but the shop he works for has crimped the time frame to a maximum of 4 hours in the pool. Pool time is expensive in Holland and I suppose that shop has decided that students can learn buoyancy control at the lake.

So the problem with ratios isn't related to the issue of teaching techniques. It's related to the issue of the amount of time available in confined. Training on the knees exacerbates the problem because it is less efficient. I also couldn't train 8 students in 4 hours adequately even on my best days and starting with students who didn't have trouble learning....

In other words, the techniques are more efficient but they are not a magic bullet. You still need enough time.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Yet it does not say OOA drill is not a reason that trumps the sensitive bottom efforts, and maybe I do not expect mid water OOA of OW divers. Rather hard to defend that position for OOA and mask clear, as any such OOA or flooded divers would be at great risk mid water until they had a chance to settle to the bottom with their chosen air donor.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here but I can tell you that the objective I work toward during confined is that the student can do all skills while swimming. This includes removing and replacing the mask and OOA. When they remove the mask, obviously it's necessary for the buddy to help them remain neutrally buoyant because they can't see, but they still do it while swimming. Doing this is also one of the performance requirements for certification.

It is possible to defend that I just do not expect neutral or midwater BC or weight remove/replace of OW divers. Particularly as I often see divers I think could not do it fluid and comfortably, or at all. It says in one case to do those on the bottom, why not in all cases.

I do the equipment doff/don while hovering. Everyone can do it..... IF they have been taught to be neutral from the start.

The link is not as explicit as something like ’for final skill evaluation, never touch the bottom unless explicitly mentioned to do so.’ I think that follows for all the skills, but it is not explicit. While we are on it, it seems best to nail down all the objections. (Sorry, my two siblings are lawyers.)

"neutrally buoyant is not the same thing as "never touching the bottom". A fin pivot is also neutrally buoyant.

R..

 

[MichaelMc]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here but I can tell you that the objective I work toward during confined is that the student can do all skills while swimming.

I'm asking if instructors could interpret the standards to allow checking off skills that were done negative/kneeling, in confined OW. You had earlier said you interpret them as no for the BC remove/replace. And an IDC was mentioned that trains instructors neutral. I wondered if that is a consensus view, that, by standard, skills are to be checked off neutral.

The unanimous answer has been it's much easier/faster to teach neutral. And better for the student. So by implication there would be no point in still teaching negative/kneeling, with some investment in change by the instructor.

Which does not quite answer if final skills done negative/kneeling is still legal, such as for instructors that do not want to change unless forced or for a student that is not getting it neutral. As the standard lays out OW skills/drills, is neutral the only interpretation of 'as would be expected of a diver at that certification level'. Maybe 'neutral is the intent' and 'instructors should really move to this' is the current state of the standards.

"neutrally buoyant is not the same thing as "never touching the bottom". A fin pivot is also neutrally buoyant.

Well, it seems like a fin pivot is a few ounces negative and tail heavy, but it is a big improvement past kneeling. Something is keeping the fins grounded. If it was just being out of trim, they would eventually tilt up until they were vertical. But it is in control of buoyancy within some small weight window.

 

[boulderjohn]

To most of us, mastery means that there is little to no room for improvement.

As I said earlier, when you are using a specific system that defines terms in a specific way, you must use the language as it is defined by the system. Mastery Learning is a system that has its own Wikipedia page, let alone many books defining it. PADI gives a specific definition of how it is to be used in the context of their classes, and that is the definition you must use. To do otherwise would be akin to saying that a log book is not a "record" of a dive, because when you look at the dictionary, you see that a "record" is a circular vinyl disc that plays back sounds.

But must you? As was said, mastery is ‘as would be expected of a diver at that certification level’. I might not expect much unless I’m told to.

Rob (Diver0001) covered this when he talked about calibration. People who assess performance skills (as in scuba) have to compare what they see with a mental image that was created through their training. New instructors should have seen a variety of successful and unsuccessful performance during their IDC, and they use that as their baseline for training.

I hope that the accepted baseline used in IDCs is changing.

I'm trying to ask whether in confined OW instructors could interpret the standards to allow checking off skills that were done negative/kneeling.

You have to separate the skill from the lace where the student is performing it. The standard for clearing a mask is the same whether the student is kneeling or hovering. The same is true for all the skills. The student passes or fails the skill based on the performance of the skill. The difference is that some instructors have the students demonstrate the skills while neutrally buoyant and some have them do it on the knees. The real shock for instructors making the transition is the realization that in many and perhaps most cases, students can do the skills more easily while neutral and horizontal than while awkwardly kneeling.

Which does not quite answer if final skills done negative/kneeling is still legal, such as for instructors that do not want to change unless forced or for a student that is not getting it neutral. As the standard lays out OW skills/drills, is neutral the only interpretation of 'as would be expected of a diver at that certification level'.

Instructors are still currently allowed to do most skills on the knees. I hope that will change.

 

[Diver0001]

I'm asking if instructors could interpret the standards to allow checking off skills that were done negative/kneeling, in confined OW. You had earlier said you interpret them as no for the BC remove/replace. And an IDC was mentioned that trains instructors neutral. I wondered if that is a consensus view, that, by standard, skills are to be checked off neutral.

I do not believe it is a consensus view but the standard speaks for itself. The standard was revised fairly recently and a lot of instructors are either struggling to adjust or have no intention of adjusting.

The unanimous answer has been it's much easier/faster to teach neutral. And better for the student. So by implication there would be no point in still teaching negative/kneeling, with some investment in change by the instructor.

And there lies the rub. Instructors who have been teaching on the knees for years are sometimes fairly paradigm locked. Last night, for example, I spoke to a colleague who was doing the CESA and hovering (mod-3). He had seen me doing the CESA the week before starting from swimming instead of starting from a fin-pivot and static on the bottom. He asked me about it, I explained the advantages of starting from swimming and he tried it with a good result in the pool.

Later in the lesson I saw him getting a student into a hover starting cross-legged on on the floor. I spoke to him about this after the lesson and explained how i get students into the hover, mentioning the efficiency advantage it gives. He resisted trying that because he thought if you just descended from the surface and started hovering that the student wouldn't understand that it is a "skill" exercise. I'll talk to him again about it in the future but these kinds of things are common. He's making some changes but not sure how to make others yet.

baby steps. I think this transition will require a generation. First, some students will need to become instructors who have been drilled in buoyancy control from the beginning and some older instructors who are paradigm locked will need to exit the system. This applies especially for CD's and IE's who largely responsible for how people teach.

Which does not quite answer if final skills done negative/kneeling is still legal, such as for instructors that do not want to change unless forced or for a student that is not getting it neutral. As the standard lays out OW skills/drills, is neutral the only interpretation of 'as would be expected of a diver at that certification level'. Maybe 'neutral is the intent' and 'instructors should really move to this' is the current state of the standards.

No. Not in the new standard, although I believe PADI is tolerating it during the transition. From a fin pivot is ok (but marginal in my opinion) but not kneeling. The standard specifically refers to maintaining buoyancy control during the equipment doff/don. This element of the performance requirement can only be achieved if the student is neutral (fin pivot or hovering).

R..

 

[kafkaland]

As someone who has taken a lot of courses, but who is not an instructor, I don't feel particularly good about instructors who "go beyond the standards" in the sense of requiring (and not just offering) additional skills for certification. There is an expectation going into a course that it will be taught to standards. That is, you are taught the skills that are in the book, and if you perform them adequately (correctly, repeatedly, and fluidly for the level of diving that you are seeking certification for), you'll receive the card. There is a lot of thought and collective wisdom put into those standards by the certification agency and for a single instructor to think he knows better and require his students to do more borders on hubris for me. If you really think the standards are insufficient, work to get them changed.