Naive - Difference between DIR & hogarthian?

[Uncle Pug]

It only took me a couple of weeks to get over wanting to commit suicide after taking Fundies.

I remember it differently. You were the one who wanted to keep going and your buddy was the one wanting to commit seppuku.

 

[OE2X]

Well I had more to learn than him. If I didn't have such a good mentor to step in - well who knows?

BTW - U missed a lovely dive yesterday. 70+ minutes at the oil docks. I was swimming face up for at least 40 minutes while we were under the pier - nice and horizontal and 1'-2' off the bottom. They don't teach that in Fundies!!!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Ah... but I caulked the hot tub and thought about mowing the lawn.

 

[WaterDawg]

Pug,

Believe it or not, I understand this. But, like Ben and some of the others, I see this training have the opposite effect at times. It *CAN* chase people back on or two steps (which is fine for a little while) and they stay there because the length of the course doesn't allow for the confidence to be built back up. Some people see it the way that you are talking about, and some people get the impression that they should be able to dive like the instructors at these courses in order to earn the right to be in the water without their hand being held. I have seen it happen in the negative.

This training is NOT for everyone. Your mentality (as one of the "good guys") is that these are confidence building skills. They are only that if you take the time to make sure that the student can do them before they get done with the course. Most of the time they can not. I could handle the ego bruising if I took the course, because I know that I am looking at a set system that takes time to learn in gear that I would be making subtle changes to. I have enough experience to take the ego-bruising and know that I can get better. Also, I am not perfect and I am still learning. But, I am confident in the skills that I current have as the baseline minimum for what I do. I want to get better, but much of that is because I had better hang up my drysuit, Dive Rite fins, and my doubles if I quit getting better. My Advanced Nitrox took six months to do. My Normoxic will be on the same order of time.

How about someone with 20-50 dives that thinks that three way air shares with perfect buoyancy are a must for open water diving? I was taught Advanced soldering skills in the Navy. The course took 14 wks. and the final exam was to solder a ckt. board from scratch (schematics provided) to NASA specs. You could fail the final one of two ways, the fastest way was to not have the circuit work and you didn't have a battery to test it at your work station. You had to be confident that you did it correctly BEFORE you took it to the instructor, LOL. The second was to have solder joints that were just not right, the components the wrong distance from the board, the leads bend at the wrong angle (need I go on?)

It was explained to us that the reason for the course was that their were many issues early on in the power plant from bad solder joints done in field repairs on the nuclear instrumentation. Due to space, ours was not a "board replace" environment. It was a component-level solder/de-solder repair to cards. The simple fact was that the instructors knew that you if you could do that in class under controlled conditions, you would likely do half that well in the field with an officer standing over your shoulder and reactor alarms blasting away. But, if you were "overtrained", that "half to eighty percent field repair" would be good enough! Your baseline skills were now higher than if you hadn't taken the advanced course.

That is the way that I see many diving skills judged. The difference is that the DIRf instructors send away someone at the end of the weekend and tell them to come back when you can do it right. My instructor will just say... do it again! Then, he will have you do it on the spot until you can do it correctly.

Come on guys, back on topic (HOG and DIR GEAR)

 

[minnediver]

When I took my DIRF there were some that got a big chip on their shoulder and have fallen out of the local DIR crowd because of it. I however saw the other 4 (including myself) realize that we weren't receiving the proper training from our current agency. We saw the benifits and have improved dramatically in our skill level. The ones that got bruised badly were the trimix certified diver that couldn't even frog kick and his trimix instructor that couldn't even isolate his valves without either slamming into the bottom or shooting to the surface. I also know several people that were going to give up diving for various reasons but had a new found zest for it after taking the DIRF.

I say to anyone, take the course and make an informed decision for yourself. If you don't like it I can accept that, if you do like it, great.

As for the question of wether or not it is a better course than anyone elses. Well I am an instructor with another agency and the DIRF is the best course I have ever taken. Will I take further training from GUE - absolutely, will I take a TecRec course - not a chance.

 

[WaterDawg]

I say to anyone, take the course and make an informed decision for yourself. If you don't like it I can accept that, if you do like it, great.

Well said!!

Usually folks who take the class really like it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

*sigh*
To my mind, training SHOULD make you reconsider the way you dive, otherwise it was propably a waste of your time and money...Maybe thats just me though...

It ain't just you ... it's what I expect when I take a class, and it's what I tell my students to expect when I teach one.

If training doesn't make you reconsider the way you dive, then what would be the point in taking it?

Now ... what was the original question again? ... oh, yes ...

I have been looking into getting a new BC- backplate w/wing style. I was thinkingof one made by Deep Sea Supply. I was a told that if I want to go DIR, don't get it, because it is more hogarthian. So (blond again) what is that? And what is the big deal?

Laurel ... we've dived together, so perhaps I can add my 2 psi to your question. As I think you know, I'm a NAUI instructor who's taken the DIR-F class ... but I don't consider myself "DIR" because I prefer to experiment with things that are not part of their program. So use that background as a context for my remarks.

The DeepSeaSupply backplate and wing can be DIR-compatible. All you need to do is get the Hogarthian (one-piece) harness instead of the Pro-Fit (3-piece) harness. I wear a DSS rig, as do many of my friends. It's high-quality gear, and Tobin's service is second to none.

Some DIR "purists" would say the wing isn't DIR because it's not donut-shaped. To them I reply ... "don't knock it till you've tried it". I have, and it's an excellent wing.

The term "Hogarthian" means different things to different people ... suffice it to say that "Hogarthian" refers not to a style of diving but to how one configures their gear to conduct a dive. It does not address one's approach to diving at all, and as such leaves a great deal to individual choice.

DIR is a specific application of Hogarthian, more narrowly-defined in both its definition of what gear one should use and in its overall approach to scuba diving. To my concern, the most valuable aspects of DIR have nothing to do with gear ... they address how you plan for and execute your diving activities. DIR covers aspects of dive planning, gas management, buddy skills (aka "team diving"), and other skills that often get overlooked by the major recreational agencies until one reaches the technical levels.

Does DIR make the best divers? No ... only the diver can do that. As with any training agency, the skill level of the individual diver is affected more by his or her efforts at learning than by the curriculum. The DIR approach can, however, point you down a good path toward becoming an excellent diver ... the rest is up to you.

Frankly, I had over 900 dives when I took the DIR-F class (I have yet to pass it, BTW ... but I didn't go there for a C-card anyway) and I wish I'd taken it about 600 or 700 dives earlier. I learned a lot, came out with a hugely deflated view of my skills, and have become a much better diver since then. The class is not a panacea ... but it's well worth taking.

Just ignore the attitudes ... on both sides. They're just a distraction. If your goal is to become a better diver, the DIR approach can help you. It certainly isn't the only way to do that ... but it is one very good way.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you got the backplate with the Holgarthian harnass it would be ok for DIR. The other harnass is neither DIR nor Holgarthian. I don't know what it is--maybe you can use it for making a modular dog-leash.

Correct, the Pro-Fit harness is neither DIR nor Hogarthian. It's in the same category as the TransPlate harness ... something for those people who want to use a backplate but actually like how the harness on a standard BCD works. It's actually a pretty well-thought out piece of gear ... just not for those who wish to dive a Hogarthian (or the DIR variant) rig.

The description of the wing uses the word "elastomeric". I have no idea what that is but I doubt very much that most DIR divers would find it praise-worthy....

Also the DIR hardcore would find your inflator too long and they would tell you that the inflate button on the inflator should be on the same side as the mouthpiece. If it has a pull dump on top of all that then your DIR aspirations would fall in the water (as it were).

Personally I don't see anything really wrong with that wing but then again I have no particular need to conform to the standard. If you feel that being DIR compatible is important to you then you'll need a different wing, I think.

Actually, although the inflator hose on my DSS wing is slightly longer than that on my Oxycheq wings, it needs to be due to the placement of the inflator valve ... on the DSS singles wing it is placed in the center of the wing, not behind the left shoulder. In effect, it's designed more like a doubles wing. What I discovered when I dived the wing is that this makes for very effective venting (probably why Tobin put it there).

The inflate button ... indeed the inflator assembly itself ... is exactly the same as the ones on my Oxycheq wings. There is nothing about the inflate/deflate assembly that would make this wing non-DIR compatible.

Again, the only thing I can see that would get the DIR "purists" to reject the wing is that it is a horseshoe (rather than donut) shape. However, in my dives with it, the wing trimmed out nicely and vented exactly as I would want it to.

Overall quality is top-notch ... just like everything else I've ever seen from DSS.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

The description of the wing uses the word "elastomeric". I have no idea what that is but I doubt very much that most DIR divers would find it praise-worthy....

Elastomeric materials can be deformed or stretched, like rubber for example. Our wings have a thick piece of rubber as a guard between the zipper and the bladder. I do find it odd that you first state that you have "no idea" what a word means, but then go on to assume it's a bad thing.....

that the inflate button on the inflator should be on the same side as the mouthpiece.

I won't deny that some prefer the inflate button be on the same side as the mouthpiece, but is this a tenant of "DIR" or a preference? Can you direct me to your source?

If it has a pull dump on top of all that then your DIR aspirations would fall in the water (as it were).

Our wings have elbows, no cable actuated pull dumps.

As far as I know the only thing about our wings that is inconsistent with the DIR guidelines is the plastic pull knob on the rear dump. We leave that on, if you wish to remove it, untie the knot.....


Regards,


Tobin

 

[Diver0001]

Elastomeric materials can be deformed or stretched, like rubber for example. Our wings have a thick piece of rubber as a guard between the zipper and the bladder. I do find it odd that you first state that you have "no idea" what a word means, but then go on to assume it's a bad thing.....

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I assumed that most DIR divers wouldn't think much of it. It sounds like something that could put pressure on the bladder and I don't think most DIR divers would sing the praises of something that puts pressure on the bladder. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but then you should call it something else so it doesn't sound so much like an elastic band. Call it a TBP (tough bladder protector) or a BZD (bladder zipper divider) or better yet, don't mention it at all. Less is more in diving, remember? If you make a point of it people are going to start wondering why your wing needs something like this and others don't.....

I won't deny that some prefer the inflate button be on the same side as the mouthpiece, but is this a tenant of "DIR" or a preference? Can you direct me to your source?

www.frogkick.nl

I take it as a tenant. Amusingly, the "correct" inflator they show on the website appears to be the Halcyon under recall but heck....Halcyon deserves the benefit of the doubt, right? On the up side, the "incorrect" inflator they show appears to be a Diverite, not one of yours.

As far as I know the only thing about our wings that is inconsistent with the DIR guidelines is the plastic pull knob on the rear dump. We leave that on, if you wish to remove it, untie the knot.....

Plastic....oh...don't get me started..... LOL. Just kidding. Tobin, I'm sorry to hear that you got your knickers in a bunch about this but I guarantee you that you'll sell more wings if you stop pointing out the elastic bands. Call it free marketing advice and I hope we're even.

R..