NACD Instructor standards violation

[ucfdiver]

Rick is correct, the disproportionally higher level of accidents for the Intro level cert didn't occur until there was marketing pressure to allow double tanks. Single tank intro had a very safe record no matter how much people want to hypothesize that having a single tank was unsafe.

Kelly,

I believe GUE and NAUI have had a total of zero deaths at their respective intro levels which do not allow single tanks. Maybe we need to look beyond the gear to find the real problem? These agencies also allow more penetration gas at the intro level, but have longer initial training periods along with the requirement of an intro to tech course so that the cave diving curriculum is cave focused and not spending the first two days (cavern) on fundamental skills easily taught in ow.

 

[karstdvr]

Kelly,

I believe GUE and NAUI have had a total of zero deaths at their respective intro levels which do not allow single tanks. Maybe we need to look beyond the gear to find the real problem? These agencies also allow more penetration gas at the intro level, but have longer initial training periods along with the requirement of an intro to tech course so that the cave diving curriculum is cave focused and not spending the first two days (cavern) on fundamental skills easily taught in ow.

GUE and NAUI cave program came into existence at the same time we had intro level doubles. The bottom line is we had less incidents with intro level single tank than doubles. People like to rationalize why having doubles would be safer for an intro diver,but nobody has explained why the statisitics have shown that the single tank intro was safer. The transition into doubles versus single tank for cave training organizations was more about marketing. Once the first agency offered it people flocked to it, and then other organizations fell in line inorder to keep getting students and instructors to teach for that agency. Single tank intro provided real limits that adhered to allowed people to get good experience,but prevented people from stepping well outside the level that would cause accidents we see now.

 

[ucfdiver]

GUE and NAUI cave program came into existence at the same time we had intro level doubles. The bottom line is we had less incidents with intro level single tank than doubles. People like to rationalize why having doubles would be safer for an intro diver,but nobody has explained why the statisitics have shown that the single tank intro was safer. The transition into doubles versus single tank for cave training organizations was more about marketing. Once the first agency offered it people flocked to it, and then other organizations fell in line inorder to keep getting students and instructors to teach for that agency. Single tank intro provided real limits that adhered to allowed people to get good experience,but prevented people from stepping well outside the level that would cause accidents we see now.

How many intro deaths in double tanks are you basing your conclusion on? Do those deaths differ from things we're seeing at the full cave level today?

Thea recent Peacock death was a visual jump, something that let's face it-- we know that she would have done at full cave because full cave divers do it all the time.

The LR intro scooter incident is the exact same story as the two long time full cave divers recently at Ginnie.

 

[nimoh]

Kelly,

I believe GUE and NAUI have had a total of zero deaths at their respective intro levels which do not allow single tanks. Maybe we need to look beyond the gear to find the real problem? These agencies also allow more penetration gas at the intro level, but have longer initial training periods along with the requirement of an intro to tech course so that the cave diving curriculum is cave focused and not spending the first two days (cavern) on fundamental skills easily taught in ow.

I agree. It seems counter-intuitive to me that a diver using s single tank and diving to thirds would be safer than a diver in doubles diving to sixths. They both get just as far into the cave, but the latter has way more gas with which to get out. Even diving 1/3 of 2/3 as in GUE Cave 1, the diver would get a little further into the cave, but still have more than 2/3 of the needed gas to get out.

If statistics show that single tank intro cave divers have less accidents, I think there has to be more to it than just the single tank.

 

[Redshift]

I think the problem that some people may be hinting at is that a diver in doubles may easily go past sixths. But any diver can go beyond training. Having more gas and proper configuration already before full cave can only be beneficial. If divers misbehave that's not because of the equipment, it's because of their training.
I started cavern using doubles (TDI) and it's very common to do so. Some instructors even require it from the beginning. And then there are agencies where you can start sidemount straight away.

Being afraid of divers going beyond their limits reminds me of TDI Portugal, who advised against teaching Trimix to Deco divers. They wanted people to first do Extended Range (yey deep air!) and then Advanced Trimix. At least, that was one of the excuses.

 

[Pavao]

... The bottom line is we had less incidents with intro level single tank than doubles. People like to rationalize why having doubles would be safer for an intro diver,but nobody has explained why the statisitics have shown that the single tank intro was safer...

I'm not offering any opinion on which is safer, but as far as comparing the number of accidents between the two, isn't there far less divers in single tank than on doubles, that makes the statistics a little off, no? I'm sure there are some, but how often do we see one? Was it more popular in the past?

 

[karstdvr]

I agree. It seems counter-intuitive to me that a diver using s single tank and diving to thirds would be safer than a diver in doubles diving to sixths. They both get just as far into the cave, but the latter has way more gas with which to get out. Even diving 1/3 of 2/3 as in GUE Cave 1, the diver would get a little further into the cave, but still have more than 2/3 of the needed gas to get out.

If statistics show that single tank intro cave divers have less accidents, I think there has to be more to it than just the single tank.

I agree there is probably more to it,but the statisitics don't lie that the single tank intro program is safer. One thing is during that time period you had a lot of different agencies entering the cave diving market, and each one seemed to "one up" the other agency to attract students and instructors by allowing less restrictions on the single tank intro program. This is a scary paradigm that I see occurring, our certification will allow you to do A,B and C, and then the next agency will say our cert will allow you to do A,B,C, and D, so choose us. There is a dilution that is occurring that seems to be having a negative impact,but this point has been talked about in another thread.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2015 at 12:23 PM ----------

I'm not offering any opinion on which is safer, but as far as comparing the number of accidents between the two, isn't there far less divers in single tank than on doubles, that makes the statistics a little off, no? I'm sure there are some, but how often do we see one? Was it more popular in the past?

Back before 2000 most everyone at the intro level used a single tank,so that was quite a few people. I am sure nobody can produce enough data for a scientific study to validate the statistics,but I can testify that intro has accounted for the most cave diving accidents that isn't medical related over the last few years, but in the past, the single tank intro program didn't have problems.

 

[nimoh]

I agree there is probably more to it,but the statisitics don't lie that the single tank intro program is safer. One thing is during that time period you had a lot of different agencies entering the cave diving market, and each one seemed to "one up" the other agency to attract students and instructors by allowing less restrictions on the single tank intro program. This is a scary paradigm that I see occurring, our certification will allow you to do A,B and C, and then the next agency will say our cert will allow you to do A,B,C, and D, so choose us. There is a dilution that is occurring that seems to be having a negative impact,but this point has been talk about in another thread.

While I agree that statistics don't lie, I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that the single tank program is safer. As a hypothetical example to illustrate my point, suppose you looked at the all cave deaths, were able to ascertain the regulators the divers were using and found that none of the divers that died were using Scuba Pro regulators. Would this mean that Scuba Pro regulators are safer?

 

[karstdvr]

, I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that the single tank program is safer.

Not jumping to a conclusion,just stating the information I know. If airline ABC has had several crashes, and airline XYZ has no accidents, which airline would you fly on? Would that be an interpretation of safer.

 

[kensuf]

GUE and NAUI cave program came into existence at the same time we had intro level doubles. The bottom line is we had less incidents with intro level single tank than doubles. People like to rationalize why having doubles would be safer for an intro diver,but nobody has explained why the statisitics have shown that the single tank intro was safer. The transition into doubles versus single tank for cave training organizations was more about marketing. Once the first agency offered it people flocked to it, and then other organizations fell in line inorder to keep getting students and instructors to teach for that agency. Single tank intro provided real limits that adhered to allowed people to get good experience,but prevented people from stepping well outside the level that would cause accidents we see now.

From Dive Library - Aquatech Dive Center and Villas DeRosa Resort - Aventuras Akumal, Mexico

Intro to cave diver fatalities through 1995

Debbie Eaves, 9/1988
Bill Cronin, 12/1988
Brent Potts, 8/1990
Rolf Adams, 4/1992


They happened..

I no longer have access to the accident files, so can not confirm the gear configuration, but these people were all intro certified during the time period when it was single tank.