My journey into tech

[TrimixToo]

you're right. what could possibly go wrong diving doubles with minimal training or education?
<snip>

I think a better question is: What emergency could arise on a dive within recreational limits using doubles that cannot arise with a single tank and is not recoverable using OW procedures? There are no new rules or procedures for recreational diving with doubles that do not also apply for recreational diving with a single tank when last I knew. There are new skills to learn to use them to full advantage and to use them for diving past recreational limits, but that's not what's been suggested here.

I am not an instructor, much less a tech instructor, but I think "try them in a pool, work out your trim, then get used to them in a quarry, and next take ITT" sounds like a reasonable, well thought-out progression. This path has been well-traveled by a lot of people, myself included.

 

[Scuba Cobra]

I think "try them in a pool, work out your trim, then get used to them in a quarry, and next take ITT" sounds like a reasonable, well thought-out progression. This path has been well-traveled by a lot of people, myself included.

This was also my progression.

I did my ITT with 40 dives. Spent a few hours in the pool, the next 2 days in a quarry practicing fin kicks, shooting bags, and other ITT skills, and then the next weekend I was back in the ocean.

The only thing that really changes is just the valve drill and isolator, but that was beat to death a couple pages ago.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I think a better question is: What emergency could arise on a dive within recreational limits using doubles that cannot arise with a single tank and is not recoverable using OW procedures? There are no new rules or procedures for recreational diving with doubles that do not also apply for recreational diving with a single tank when last I knew. There are new skills to learn to use them to full advantage and to use them for diving past recreational limits, but that's not what's been suggested here.

I am not an instructor, much less a tech instructor, but I think "try them in a pool, work out your trim, then get used to them in a quarry, and next take ITT" sounds like a reasonable, well thought-out progression. This path has been well-traveled by a lot of people, myself included.

Pretty valid statement

I have zero experience with doubles apart from stubbing my toe on a set once (does that count?) When I chose SM I did take a course before I got in the water with them, but then SM is massively different rigging wise.

Marie should be justifiably proud of where she's go to in 4 years, but equally she can be just as critical of other people. I've constructively criticised Marie a number of times privately but there is a way to "deliver the criticism" and I try to be fair.

If you invite critic of yourself, then you need to prepare yourself to hear things you might not wish too, especially when you think you have some things dialed away

I've just had a skills critic from another instructor at my invitation. I thought I knew all my weak points, I was surprised at how many additional things I need to improve on - all of them minor - but as we strive to improve we must face the facts that we can all improve if we choose too, and none of us are perfect, and that there is no perfect configuration that perfectly suits every dive environment and condition (despite what is preached by some)

 

[JohnnyC]

A lot of her progression went like this:

Poster: "Hey, have you tried A?"
Marie13: "No, I'm not gonna do it, I don't wanna hear it, I'm doing it my way" (ie: validate my choice)
Poster: "Ok, but based on your question I think this is something you should at least try." (maybe keep an open mind)
Marie13: "Nope! Not no how not no way!" (this is my forum post get out if you don't agree with me)

a month later:
Marie13: "Hey check out how great A is! I'm so glad I knew that A was the way to go." (ignore the fact that I threw a tantrum when it was suggested earlier)

That's not a denial of the negative interactions people threw her way, unwarranted or not, simply pointing out that there is no victimhood here.

Some people are like that, some people take umbrage at that type of personality. Quite a few of her choices followed this path. When she didn't get affirmation she got upset and put people on ignore. When you create your own echo chamber it's really easy to just assume everyone is an idiot, even despite glaring evidence to the contrary. Whatever, it's some peoples personalities. When you put yourself out there on a public forum you'll interact with all sorts of people, some you will get along with, some you won't. Some people accept that you can have positive interactions with people you disagree with, others simply choose to remove those people from their narrative, despite the fact that it gives them tunnel vision. Some people think that they should be free of criticism despite the fact that this is a public forum with a plethora of varying knowledge and experience.

I get it, she doesn't like when people don't affirm her opinions, she doesn't like it when she puts something out there and it gets critiqued (I mean, nobody does), and she reacts harshly when that happens. That's absolutely her right to react that way, and I don't hold it against her. I wish her well and hope that she achieves her goals safely, and I hope she makes the most of the good will she has received here. She received lots of excellent knowledge, recommendations, even free gear, and I hope she takes all of that and becomes a good, safe, accomplished diver. I may not agree with the way she handles herself, but I don't wish her any ill will.

When people take their ball and go home, they rarely realize that it's a reflection on themselves. I think it's an immature way to handle it, but that's their choice to make.

 

[guruboy]

I think a better question is: What emergency could arise on a dive within recreational limits using doubles that cannot arise with a single tank and is not recoverable using OW procedures?

Can every non-deco OW dive be “recovered” by doing a proper CESA? Yes
Is that ideal? No
Do people still injure themselves? Yes
Do people still panic and drown? Yes

Doubles add a level of complexity over single tank. There are more failure conditions. There is usually more weight that can't be ditched (balanced rig is important).

The point of training to use and understand your gear is to reduce risk. And not just when handling situations after they occur in the water. It’s also about preventing them with pre-dive checks.

I find abnfrog's suggestion that she should "just go dive" since that's how "we did it 25 years ago" to be a rather irresponsible attitude for an instructor.

I think "try them in a pool, work out your trim, then get used to them in a quarry, and next take ITT" sounds like a reasonable, well thought-out progression

Her progression does not appear to be pool->quarry->ITT.

It is pool->quarry->boat diving wrecks->ITT

She has documented two pool sessions and two quarry dives. Her next trip is in less than two weeks. From reading her posts, my understanding is she is using doubles to increase her bottom time on wreck dives.

 

[MrBigfins]

I didnt see a mod post saying that threads were removed, yet this seemed to go sideways rather quickly.

This is the second thread in a row that someone tried to open up and be bare and vulnerable with truth about the struggles and progress through furthering themselves as a diver. In my opinion we as a community should do better in fostering this kind of discourse. I understand that people can be passionate about their opinions ,and others may not be the best at taking criticism. But both sides definitely need to work on how we interact with each other. As a fairly inexperienced diver I looked foward to the play by play blows of the instruction, a sense of what was to come as I progress in my training g. Hopefully some education on missteps to avoid. I found some of that, I also found responses that are rather aggressive for threads that were meant to help others understand the training at hand. Cant we all just get along?

 

[leadduck]

I think a better question is: What emergency could arise on a dive within recreational limits using doubles that cannot arise with a single tank and is not recoverable using OW procedures?

Accidentally diving with a closed isolator valve: diver runs suddenly OOA. Sure it's recoverable by switching the reg, but that's not what comes to your mind as a solution right away if you have no experience with doubles.

 

[chillyinCanada]

A lot of her progression went like this:

Poster: "Hey, have you tried A?"
Marie13: "No, I'm not gonna do it, I don't wanna hear it, I'm doing it my way" (ie: validate my choice)
Poster: "Ok, but based on your question I think this is something you should at least try." (maybe keep an open mind)
Marie13: "Nope! Not no how not no way!" (this is my forum post get out if you don't agree with me)

a month later:
Marie13: "Hey check out how great A is! I'm so glad I knew that A was the way to go." (ignore the fact that I threw a tantrum when it was suggested earlier)

That's not a denial of the negative interactions people threw her way, unwarranted or not, simply pointing out that there is no victimhood here.

Some people are like that, some people take umbrage at that type of personality. Quite a few of her choices followed this path. When she didn't get affirmation she got upset and put people on ignore. When you create your own echo chamber it's really easy to just assume everyone is an idiot, even despite glaring evidence to the contrary. Whatever, it's some peoples personalities. When you put yourself out there on a public forum you'll interact with all sorts of people, some you will get along with, some you won't. Some people accept that you can have positive interactions with people you disagree with, others simply choose to remove those people from their narrative, despite the fact that it gives them tunnel vision. Some people think that they should be free of criticism despite the fact that this is a public forum with a plethora of varying knowledge and experience.

I get it, she doesn't like when people don't affirm her opinions, she doesn't like it when she puts something out there and it gets critiqued (I mean, nobody does), and she reacts harshly when that happens. That's absolutely her right to react that way, and I don't hold it against her. I wish her well and hope that she achieves her goals safely, and I hope she makes the most of the good will she has received here. She received lots of excellent knowledge, recommendations, even free gear, and I hope she takes all of that and becomes a good, safe, accomplished diver. I may not agree with the way she handles herself, but I don't wish her any ill will.

When people take their ball and go home, they rarely realize that it's a reflection on themselves. I think it's an immature way to handle it, but that's their choice to make.

Free gear??!!! What do I have to do?

 

[guruboy]

Accidentally diving with a closed isolator valve: diver runs suddenly OOA. Sure it's recoverable by switching the reg, but that's not what comes to your mind as a solution right away if you have no experience with doubles.

The OW solution is to get buddy air or CESA.

The action you describe and knowing how to manipulate the valves are “optional” solutions that can be implemented through education and training.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I didnt see a mod post saying that threads were removed, yet this seemed to go sideways rather quickly.

This is the second thread in a row that someone tried to open up and be bare and vulnerable with truth about the struggles and progress through furthering themselves as a diver. In my opinion we as a community should do better in fostering this kind of discourse. I understand that people can be passionate about their opinions ,and others may not be the best at taking criticism. But both sides definitely need to work on how we interact with each other. As a fairly inexperienced diver I looked foward to the play by play blows of the instruction, a sense of what was to come as I progress in my training g. Hopefully some education on missteps to avoid. I found some of that, I also found responses that are rather aggressive for threads that were meant to help others understand the training at hand. Cant we all just get along?

Two things.

First, yes, you're right. We do want to achieve a more positive experience with regard to giving advice, recommendations, suggestions, etc. But typing on the internet is a very flat medium and it is very easy for words to be taken the wrong way. Perhaps it was meant to be delivered in a "matter of fact" way but is percieved to have been delivered in a "mean" way.

Second, when good advice is offered but rejected, the one rejecting the good advice, is likely to start receiving incoming in a more and more deliberate way.

No one wants anyone getting injured or worse and that's pretty much the long and the short of it.