My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

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yeah yeah and everyone`s got one.But as it is or goes,I dive with a Dacor Nautica W D Wich is a "jacket style" as you so call it.
I have absolutley no trouble staying horizonal,verticle
,sideways,on the back,head first ,upsidedown or any other position I can get into.It might be that it`s all in what one gets "used to" using.Pick one and wear it more than a few dives and work out the bugs.You can worry yourself into heart failure if you keep trying to find "the best".Choose one that youve tested that works all around well in general and stick with it.I believe you might find a little more happiness in life under the surface that way!Good Luck!
 
SeaJay, I think you did some good research. Vest inflation is good, the air sloshes around to the high point, so instead of trying to roll you, the air rolls.

now, that said, I actually have a BP.

I started with a zeagle ranger, an old one. I like the weight integrated, it kept me rolled the right way. I guess that BC had a strong mind of its own, but i agreed with it and had it trimmed right. However, it had no pockets, and the shoulder straps went into grommets in the cummerbund, and the grommets kept pulling out. My whole rigged BC, weights and all, fell off my shoulder once when I was taking it off one strap at a time. Plus, it was soft, no structure, so it was almost impossible to change tanks in a small boat or zodiac. It turned into a shapeless mass of webbing, hard to figure out which way was up. It packed small, though!

From there I went to a seaquest black diamond. I thought I wanted a tech BC. I basically wore it out, and by the time I was done with it, I was very tired of it. I didn't need all the d-rings and crap. In warm water, I had the biggest BC on the boat. I was tired of the clutter.

this is me and that BC:

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/divers/pictures/p8244945.html

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/divers/pictures/p7010319.html

http://homepage.mac.com/rogerc/bad_bc.jpg

A friend of mine dives with an old plastic backplate and no bladder, like an old time diver (which he is). He is fast and streamlined. I wanted to be like him, but wanted a small bladder, so I got a backplate. Not much more reason than that, no DIR, no GUE, no caves, no wrecks, no entanglement concerns, just an open water single tank guy trying to be streamlined. I've been doing this since '87, I have around 1000 dives. I went through a tek stage, a hunter stage, a freediver stage, now I'm a photographer. I may change again, but for now, I'm a single tank guy, minimal deco, open water, warm or cold, and very happy there. No immediate desire to go into holes or wrecks, put on doubles or any mixes beyond basic nitrox. I'm comfortable and awfully damn happy in the water with any BC, this is still fun to me.

Anyway, this is my buddy, the one I wanted to copy. Look how streamlined he is!

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/roger/2001cozshel/P8131737.JPG

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/roger/2001cozshel/P8162544.JPG

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/roger/2001cozshel/P8131817.JPG

http://www.rogerandjudycarlson.com/divers/pictures/p8152226.html

So anyway, I have a BP now, and it's nice, but I didn't get religion. It's not that different, I didn't hear a gong or anything. I like having a clean chest, and I like the way the crotch strap lets me keep the whole thing loose. And it doesn't ride up. I'm a photographer now, and my old BC, when I was inverted, it would try to come off over my head (I am positive, with wetsuit, BC is very negative, so the BC would try to shoot down past me). I like the circular bladder, it lets the air roll more than other BCs I've had, so it has the least mind-of its own of any BC I've had. I lke the way the weight is spread out due to the plate and close to the center of lift (good post by MikeFerrara) , that reduces the mind-of-its own.

To really stir this pot, I want an air-2 for an inflator. I don't have an octopus or a safe second right now. As a photog, I am typically solo, and and as a big guy, my tank is usually emptiest. Yeah, I know, there are other failures that could hurt me and a buddy. In an enclosed environment, I can see big benefit to the long hose. In a simple OW environment, the benefits are less, and the cost of having to deal with it every dive, for me, puts the cost/benefit ratio on the side of the short hose. With a short hose on my primary, and an air two inflator, I can give air comfortably to a buddy, and find my backup source reliably and quickly. With no overhead and low deco obligation, we can put up with the aggravation of sharing with the short hose.

I have used a vest, but not many times. I think it is good on mind-of its own and letting you roll how you want, but I disliked the way it squeezed me when full of air. Guess I should have had a different size. Many I have seen don't have much lift, which is less important to me now. I'm also a little concerned about all the seams, but I've never seen one fail, so I assume they are made right. At this point, I lke that stuff is on my back and not on me, but no way will I guarantee that this is the last BC I buy. Only had it a couple months, though, maybe I'll get religion eventually, or join the reich ;-)

As far as pockets go, I added one to the straps of my BP, since no matter what suit I am wearing, I need one pocket for a lens.

I keep my camera and console clipped to each shoulder, and in the interest of greater streamlining and comfort, I don't use big D-rings there. I added very small light-load rings there by burning holes in the straps and adding small d-rings with tiny stainless bolts and big fender washers, with some .75" webbing on the bolt & around the tiny d ring. What works, works. Over time you'll figure out how many pockets, straps, and buckles you want. In warm water I dive with cargo pocket shorts on, I keep the pockets full of stuff. In cold water, I rely more on BC pockets and take fewer toys.

I lke the weights that buckle in, I'm using scubapro's. I've lost weight pouches from my seaquest that velcro'ed in. Luckily, it was at a harbor cleanup, and I was dragging in an outboard motor (walking on the bottom, not lifting with my BC), so I was plenty heavy and didn't notice. Oddly enough, I found someone else's velcro weight pouch that same day. Common loss, I guess.

I have only seen another BP in my diving here in SoCal, maybe I run with the wrong crowd. I don't run into any DIR people. Normal divers don't really notice my rig. The old timers who dive with old plastic BPs with no bladder let me dive with them. They are ok with me having a bladder, since I carry a camera and dive near coral sometimes, but they think I spent too much money.
 
CCDeep once bubbled...
To really stir this pot, I want an air-2 for an inflator. I don't have an octopus or a safe second right now. As a photog, I am typically solo, and and as a big guy, my tank is usually emptiest. Yeah, I know, there are other failures that could hurt me and a buddy. In an enclosed environment, I can see big benefit to the long hose. In a simple OW environment, the benefits are less, and the cost of having to deal with it every dive, for me, puts the cost/benefit ratio on the side of the short hose. With a short hose on my primary, and an air two inflator, I can give air comfortably to a buddy, and find my backup source reliably and quickly. With no overhead and low deco obligation, we can put up with the aggravation of sharing with the short hose.

I use an Air 2 and generally like it. It has some pros and cons like everything else, but most arguments by detractors are untrue or overblown.

However, I would not put one on a Halcyon. Without a shoulder dump it would be too difficult and unsafe to control an OOA ascent.

Ralph
 
rcohn once bubbled...


I use an Air 2 and generally like it. It has some pros and cons like everything else, but most arguments by detractors are untrue or overblown.

However, I would not put one on a Halcyon. Without a shoulder dump it would be too difficult and unsafe to control an OOA ascent.

Ralph

An Air II inflator/deflator/secondary is a replacement for the standard inflator/deflator hose. Where a standard inflator/deflator hose has a button for inflation and a button for deflation (ie you have to hold the hose up in the air when ascending and push the button) an Air II, or any other air integrated octo that I know of, has these features PLUS a secondary reg built in. In other words, using an Air II (or any other integrated octo) only ADDS to the features on your inflator hose, not detract.

Additionally, the Air II and Air Source (Scubapro's and SeaQuest's air integrated octos, both balanced to breathe well) also have a pull dump. Effectively, you have all the funtionality of the standard inflator/deflator, plus a pull dump, plus your secondary.

ADDITIONALLY, both the Scubapro Classic and the SeaQuest QD Pro (and many other high-end BC's) have ANOTHER valve, identical to your rear dump, on the RIGHT shoulder.

In other words, with a standard BC, you've actually got THREE shoulder dumps... The one at the end of the inflator hose that we all know so well, a pull dump on the left shoulder, and a pull dump on the right shoulder. That's not even mentioning the one or two rear dumps designed to work when you are inverted.

So I believe that having an air integrated octo wouild only AID in an OOA emergency ascent. In fact, if you did get to the surface and suddenly found yourself in the path of an idiot boat driver, nothing would be able to dump air and get you under and out of harm's way faster than one of these BC's.

The air integrated octo does NOT lose features... It keeps them, adds to them, and makes operation of your bouyancy simpler. At least, that's the idea. DIR divers would tell you otherwise, and "old school" divers who don't use bladders at all would tell you that NO BLADDER AT ALL was the simplest design. Again, it's a matter of what works best for you.

In an effort to keep this particular topic from getting too "flame" oriented, I avoided responding last night to two posts... But I've thought a lot about my response, and I have changed my mind... I don't think that my response is inflammatory. I'm talking about the "Don't use your BC as a lift bag" concept.

When I first heard someone say that, I was thinking that they were advising someone NOT to REMOVE their BC and tie it to an item and use that as a lift bag. But when someone told me that same thing last night, I realized that they simply meant not to tie yourself to an item and attempt to lift an item that way. Well, I can see how the argument would be very valid... It does seem like an unsafe practice, after all. But I wasn't talking about a 50 lb ship's bell... I was talking about finding another diver's weight belt, or an anchor along the bottom worth maybe 20 lbs. And I don't think I'd bother with a lift bag for that stuff. I'd pick it up and simply bring it back with me, which would mean more lift in my BC. I would likely use one of the bottom D rings on the BC to carry it with me.

And my point about the triple shoulder dumps on these high end BC's is very pertinent here... If I were to drop the heavy item (not likely, since it's D-ringed in), I could easily prevent the missle syndrome. Not so on a single-dump BP/Wing setup.

Also, I just gotta say, in response to the "I just gotta ask..." No, I am not affiliated with any dive shop or dive-oriented company. I own a communications company focused on a high speed, wireless internet project right now. My only affiliation with diving is that I just got certified and am in love with the sport. :D
 
CC, you said earlier something to the effect of, "I don't use a secondary at all of any kind... Yeah, I know it's unsafe..."

Before anyone lays into him about that, keep in mind that your inflator/deflator hose, even if not equipped with a regulator, can be used for breathing off of in an emergency situation... So the concept of a "secondary" is really a "thirdary," it just isn't thought of as so because there's no regulator there normally and breathing from it takes a little skill and coordination. It would be enough to get you to the surface, though.

BTW, an integrated octo does just that... It just takes that concept and just adds a regulator to make it easier to use as an air source when your primary fails.

'Course, then there's your buddy's stuff, too, which is a common "fix" for problems underwater, according to DIR. So you really have quite a number of emergency options.
 
SeaJay once bubbled...
I was talking about finding another diver's weight belt, or an anchor along the bottom worth maybe 20 lbs. And I don't think I'd bother with a lift bag for that stuff. I'd pick it up and simply bring it back with me, which would mean more lift in my BC. I would likely use one of the bottom D rings on the BC to carry it with me.

And my point about the triple shoulder dumps on these high end BC's is very pertinent here... If I were to drop the heavy item (not likely, since it's D-ringed in), I could easily prevent the missle syndrome.
First of all.... I don't really think that you could prevent a rapid uncontrolled ascent should you drop 20lbs even with two shoulder dumps... you probably wouldn't be able to react fast enough.... especially since this is not something that you will be practicing regularly... I hope.

Second... even a short lived rapid ascent can start bubble formation and then if you did manage to arrest your ascent by using both shoulder dumps chances are you would over dump and start a trip to the bottom. The chance for a major accident is far to great IMO.

Third... deploying and using a lift bag is something that you can practice safely.... and is really not a bother to use...

TIP...
When boat diving do not attach the lift bag directly to the object to be raised. Send up the bag on some line from your reel or spool and then tie that off on the object. Later once you are back on the boat you can motor over and raise the object. This is for the lighter objects such as weigh belts and light anchors that can be lifted by your line. There is a way to accomplish this with heavier objects as well.
 
SeaJay once bubbled...


In other words, using an Air II (or any other integrated octo) only ADDS to the features on your inflator hose, not detract.

Additionally, the Air II and Air Source (Scubapro's and SeaQuest's air integrated octos, both balanced to breathe well) also have a pull dump. Effectively, you have all the funtionality of the standard inflator/deflator, plus a pull dump, plus your secondary.

ADDITIONALLY, both the Scubapro Classic and the SeaQuest QD Pro (and many other high-end BC's) have ANOTHER valve, identical to your rear dump, on the RIGHT shoulder.

In other words, with a standard BC, you've actually got THREE shoulder dumps...

Great, now you have three different ways to experience a catastrophic failure. I think when we all entered this sport we had a fascination with all the little buttons, pull dumps, clips, etc. Don't worry, that gradually wears off. Wait, okay, maybe that's not so true.....
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

First of all.... I don't really think that you could prevent a rapid uncontrolled ascent should you drop 20lbs even with two shoulder dumps... you probably wouldn't be able to react fast enough.... especially since this is not something that you will be practicing regularly... I hope.



Uncle Pug, with all due respect to your high level of expertise and experience... I can SWIM down 20 lbs... That's no big deal. Add to that triple dumps, or at least one if I'm inverted, and that wouldn't be a big deal... Even if I DID somehow lose something tied off to a D-ring, I wouldn't go far... Five or ten feet, maybe, worth of reaction time.

I mean, if this really was an issue, think of all of the lawsuits that would be occurring when someone lost their integrated weights due to the velcro attachments on some rigs... I only dive with 5-15 lbs usually, but will take as much as 30 in current. If a 20 lb item really required a lift bag, then imagine what would happen if I suddenly lost 20 or 30 lbs from my weight belt (apparently a non-so-uncommon occurrence due to the number of weights found at some dive locations.)

I like your tip, though. My only question is this... You've told me that "carrying a lift bag isn't a big deal" since they don't take up much space. Yet, where do you keep your extra 100' of line? On a reel? So now you've got a lift bag and a reel hanging from you... Not to mention that regular line probably isn't a good idea, since the line's gotta be capable of carrying up it's 50-100 lb item, and that's kinda stressing most cave lines. It's gotta be some line of some significance. And that's if the item you are looking to retrieve is in only 100' of water. You'd have to carry more if there's any chance of the item being retrieved is any deeper than 100', or if there was a current (100' of depth with a strong surface current might require 200' of line)

So where are you keeping your lift bag, your ~200' of 100 lb test line (or more) and still remaining streamlined? Let's not forget that this is open ocean in most cases around here, so you've gotta have flares, a safety sausage, line for the wreck, lights (two for redundancy) and then your secondary (because you scoff at air integrated octos), and... Hey, what was that DIR philosophy again? "Simpler," right?

No thanks. A jacket style BC (even the smaller ones are ~50 lbs of lift, since the bladder wraps all the way around you), air integrated octo, and an air integrated BC for me, please. With some D-rings and clips in case I find something cool. I might keep one lift bag/safety sausage in my pocket for safe keeping, and in case I find something really cool down there that's more than 20 lbs.

On one of my recent dive trips I found a massive conch shell, weighing maybe 5-10 lbs... And these huge, 8" sand dollars; the kind too big to wash up on the beach. I put them all in my catch bag and took them up with me. Are you telling me that I should have used a lift bag?

This subject is getting silly. Yes, I'm all for safety and that's my #1 priority when I dive. But this sport is about fun and enjoyment, nothing else. I don't have to be down there. I do it because I enjoy it. Taking this stuff to such extremes kinda takes all the fun out of it, know what I mean?
 
SeaJay wrote...
So I believe that having an air integrated octo wouild only AID in an OOA emergency ascent. In fact, if you did get to the surface and suddenly found yourself in the path of an idiot boat driver, nothing would be able to dump air and get you under and out of harm's way faster than one of these BC's.
I'd be willing to bet I can reach 20' quicker by finning hard straight down and using one rear dump than by simply deflating and waiting to sink.

SeaJay wrote...
And my point about the triple shoulder dumps on these high end BC's is very pertinent here... If I were to drop the heavy item (not likely, since it's D-ringed in), I could easily prevent the missle syndrome. Not so on a single-dump BP/Wing setup.
Triple? How are you going to use all three simultaneously?

SeaJay wrote...
In an effort to keep this particular topic from getting too "flame" oriented, I avoided responding last night to two posts... Also, I just gotta say, in response to the "I just gotta ask..."
Ahhhh, c'mon. Answer the last paragraph in my previous post.
 
jasondbaker once bubbled...


Great, now you have three different ways to experience a catastrophic failure. I think when we all entered this sport we had a fascination with all the little buttons, pull dumps, clips, etc. Don't worry, that gradually wears off. Wait, okay, maybe that's not so true.....

Well, I've just shown how those items can add to the safety of the dive... By having better and redundant control over your bouyancy. Talk to me all you want about "less dumps are better," but I'd want the ability to sink like a stone when that idiot boater comes around. And I can assure you that this happens more often than "catastrophic" dump failures.

The truth is, if you keep your gear in good working order, I don't think you'll ever have a dump valve just suddenly go out on you for no reason. Based on the design of the dumps, a "failure" would end up looking more like a leak and not something that would mean that you were staying on the bottom. You could easily outinflate it and make an ascent.

But okay, let's say that diver A and diver B both experience this "catastrophic failure" on their BC. Neither is able to inflate their BC's bladder at all. Diver A is wearing your latest Fred T "heavy" with a single tank at 100 fsw on the deck of a wreck and diver B is wearing a SeaQuest jacket style or back inflate BC right next to him. Let's say that both of them have just ripped a valve right off of their BC... (BP/Wing setups aren't immune to it either) Or maybe their BC got caught on a part of the wreck and is now torn open.

Diver B ditches his weight (he's wearing 15 lbs) and makes an immediate ascent. Not tough to do since he's slightly positively bouyant like this. Maybe he ditches only one pocket so that his ascent is very controlled. Heck, he might even be able to swim it up... It's only 15 lbs. Diver A on the other hand, goes and ditches his weight too. Unfortunately, since he's wearing a Fred T "heavy" and a STA, he's pretty negatively bouyant. Maybe he can swim up the 15 or 20 pounds negative. Maybe he's wearing two full steel 120's, and was seriously dependent on that bladder. Maybe he knew the whole time he was diving that he was already very negative, and never dived with any weight to begin with. Diver A is left with three options: 1. Swim up the weight (maybe possible, maybe not, given the fact that he was so overweighted to begin with.). 2. Ditch his entire life support system and make an emergency ascent, likely making him very susceptible to DCS, if he makes it 100' (what if they are deeper!?) 3. Stay on the bottom with the fishes and eventually become worm food.

No wonder you are so worried about valve failures! I can imagine that it could be a pretty serious issue. Wait a minute... What if diver A had read this thread and in an attempt to "properly trim" he put a whole bunch of weight back BEHIND his tank, where it wasn't able to be ditched?

Oh man.

Good thing he's got that 7' primary hose. :confused:

"Simpler" so that it's "safer," right? I just hope that diver A has a buddy nearby that can give him a hand... Or maybe a lift. No, wait... That's the wrong way to do it... Let's tie him to a LIFT BAG, 'cause we don't want to do any Polaris missle impersonations. No... Tie him to a lift bag with 100' of line hanging onto him... Then surface, get in the boat, and then pull him up by hand 'cause that's easier.

In the meantime, diver B has surfaced, told his buddies about the problem, gotten 40 minutes of surface interval, and is back in the water with another, readily available jacket or back inflate style BC.

This is silly. Three dump valves are more functional; functionally SAFER; than one that you have to raise above your head. And with a jacket or back inflate BC (instead of a BP/Wings setup) you don't start out overweighted, so CATASTROPHIC FAILURES aren't catastrophic.
 
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