My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[AquaGuy]

SeaJay, thanks for taking the time to post your experience with various BC's you tested. I am a very new diver and just purchased the OMS IQ Pac system. (Never used it before!) I will try to explain my first experience of using it last weekend.

I went out diving with a local Dive club in San Diego. We took an inflatable hard bottom boat out to one of the local wrecks off shore (Yukon). It was my first time diving in such a small boat. Four of us loaded our gear into the bow of the ARC. I immediately noticed that everyone had the jacket style BC's (Rangers, Seaquest etc..) I was the only one with a BP.

When we arrived at the dive site, we were told to throw our BC's into the water and tie them to the boat so they would not float away. Right away, I noticed the large D ring on the top of the BC came to good use (clipped rope from the boat onto it) I proceeded to put my fins on and then jump into the water and put my BC on.

I swam under and up into the BC and basically slid into the harness with no problem. I tightened the sholder and weist belt/straps with no problem.

I then tried to find the crouch strap. For the life of me, I could not find it. I guess it had somehow got tangled up under the BP. I tried for about 5 mins and could not untangle it. My buddy came over and found it for me. I then tried to clip it together. With gloves on it made it very hard to clip together. What ended up happening was the clip came unattached from the strap. I ended up putting the clip in a pocket did not use the crouch strap.

I did notice the BC was trying to push my face into the water. Probably because I had about 28 lbs of lead in the front pockets. I am a big guy and need a total of about 32 pounds.. I need to replace the aluminium BP with a SS BP so more weight is on my back, not around my waist!

I just sat back like I was in a chair and noticed that the Wings supported me much better the jacket style BC. I kicked over to by buddies and was already used to the new feel of the wings.

We desended down to about 95 ft. I noticed that the bungies around the wing helped all of the air come out of the BC much faster than the Jacket style BC! I also noticed that on the decent down I had much more control (Felt more streamlined).

Once at the bottom, it took me a little time to establish netural buoyancy. Once buoyancy was established, I immediately noticed how much easer it was to swim horizontal. I always found that I had to work hard using the jacket style BC to hover horizontal. With the BP, it was a natural feeling. I had no problems with placing my body in any position that I wanted. The BC did move a little probably because the crouch strap was not being used. Even with the slight movement, it felt very comfortable.

When it came time to ascend, I used the dump value in the upper right to release all of the air out of the bc. I ascended to the 15ft safety stop, put some air the wing and found it very easy to hover horiziontal at the safety stop (I did not have a line to hold on to). In the older jacket style, I was always fighting to get the proper buoyancy to hover horiziontal at the safety stop. I ascended to the surface and filled the wing up all the way (100 pounds of lift!) I was right out of the water and felt like I was sitting on my favorite chair. I easily kicked over to the boat, loosened all the stramps, slid out from under the BC and attached the BC to the boat.

On the second dive, I had similar problems with the crouch strap. Other than that, it was a great dive.

To summarize, I feel that BP wing style BC is much better for me. I need to figure a way to attach the crouch strap while in the water. I also need to get a SS BP to distribute the weight better.

Keep in mind I am a rookie (Less than 5 dives!) and know that over time and with more experience that I will probably find things I don't like about the BP winds setup. (Hard to travel with etc..) However I feel that from my first experience last weekend that the positives will probably out weight the negatives.

Seajay, you should take the time to give BP another try and have somebody with more experience help you! I am very positive that over time you will appreciate all of the benefits that it has to offer.

 

[SeaJay]

Mike:

Thanks for the offer, I really appreciate it. Seems, though, that there's got to be someone within driving distance in South Carolina, Georgia, or Florida who is willing to help me take "The BP challenge." If someone's reading this, and is willing to properly fit me to a BP (maybe I had it maladjusted?) and show me the RIGHT way of doing it, I'll give it another try. What the heck? Someone? Anyone out there who's willing to show me? Air's on me, and that $200 reward is worth it to me if it helps.

Aquaguy: Interesting that your experience, even as a newbie, would be so positive. I've found nothing better than a high-end jacket style BC, but would welcome a look. The BP I tried was an aluminum one, although I don't know what brand it was. The wings attached were Halcyon (sp?) and were relatively small... Perhaps the 27 pounders? Tough to tell... It was a borrowed rig. All the straps seemed to fit nicely, with some adjustment. But I'm still open to the idea that I wasn't doing something right if everyone's experience is radically different from my own. I wore 10 lbs on my sides on a weight belt.

The problem I found with any back inflate, including this BP/Wing setup, was exactly what Mike just mentioned: The difference between my center of gravity and my center of bouyancy. I found the jacket style to place them the closest together, trimmable by placing weights in different places. With any back inflate, I found that the only way to change trim was to literally hang what little weight I had off the rear of the tank, and even then I found a balance only at one bouyancy position... The moment I changed bouyancy, my rig was back up to it's old tricks again, trying to change my attitude in the water. This was never a problem with the jacket style, and so I fell in love with it. Add to that some usable pockets, and the jacket's ability to place the "bubble" anywhere it wanted (in front of me, behind me, on my side, whatever) and I fell in love.

I would love to have my opinion changed by someone who perhaps would do something to my rig that I as a newbie didn't think of... Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

By the way, how was it diving from a Zodiac-style boat? How was the chop? I've got lots of great dives out here available to me, but are 10-15 miles off the coast, where seas can be glass smooth but more often than not are 2'-4' seas, and can quickly go to 4'-5' seas if you aren't watching it. For this reason, I'm thinking that a boat of 30' or more is going to be necessary to really get out there, even for just a couple of divers. For now, that's cost prohibitive, but I'm chartering a boat and captain about twice a month and we all chip in to go. Would a Zodiac-style boat be able to handle this situation? I know where I can get one relatively cheap...

 

[TCDiver1]

Wings are not, in general, for beginners. I own & regularly dive both types of bc's. IMHO the beginning diver has enough to work out without the issues caused by wings.

My biggest & really only issue with wings is at the surface. Even when your trim is set up perfect, the wings will push you face down in the water. Anyone who dives wings knows this is relatively easy to offset by leaning back on top of your wings. For some reason this is the last thing newer divers think of doing, even if thoroughly briefed to do so before the dive. It task loads some newer divers beyond their comfort zone, which is not a good thing.

I won't teach classes in wings for this very reason. Laying on your back on the surface is not best control postion to teach from.

Seajay, IMHO you are approaching this right. Dive with what you are comfortable with. When you have logged more dives, try the wings again, but track down a seasoned diver or dive pro, to help you get familiar with diving wings. You WILL find they have there place in your diving world.

 

[landlocked]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Weird. It's not that I don't believe you... And I know what my experience was. My question is, "Why did you and I have such different results?"

Trim Pockets!

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk,

My wings do not push me face down. I dive and teach in nothing but a wing and I do it for control and comfort. Only being over weighted and or having the weight in the wrong place will cause you to be pushed foreward.

 

[ronrosa]

I use a Seaquest Balance back inflate bcd. My experience is limited to the jacket bcd I used during my OW class and the Seaquest Balance. With the Balance I can get in any position I want in the water and at the surface, however the Balance definitely prefers to be horizontal.

I shoot underwater video and I need to keep totally still when recording. Most of the time this is not a problem, but during those rare times I need to be in a vertical position I can not stay vertical and keep the camera still. The Balance wants to go horizontal. I can stay vertical, but my body moves too much for shooting video.

I us 3 lbs. in each weight pocket for a total of 6 lbs., so overweighting is not the problem. IMHO, the Balance just prefers to be horizontal. I suspect other back inflate bcd's also prefer to be vertical.

That said, I still like my Balance and will use it for many years.

I have no experience w/ BP & wings.

 

[SeaJay]

Ron:

That was my experience exactly, with any other back inflate BC, including a BP/wings setup. It's not that I couldn't get in any position I wanted... It's just that it took me some effort to stay there. Combined with the lack of usable pockets, and I ended up preferring the jacket style BC, although I can completely see why someone would prefer a back inflate.

I was very interested in the Balance, but chose to test out the Black Diamond, the next more expensive SeaQuest back inflate, because of the dual rear dumps instead of one, the extra pocket in the BC, the ability to use dual tanks, and the bigger bladder for more lift. Occassionally when I dive a site, I find something on the bottom of significant mass that I want to take with me to the surface... So I liked the idea of having a little more lift available to me without having to use a lift bag for everything.

But the Balance, with it's even more streamlined and simpler design I thought definitely looked nice... A slight savings $-wise, too, without really giving up any features. Something, too, tells me that it'd pack up smaller for trips as well.

So I can completely see why someone would want the Balance. Nice BC, IMHO. Real nice.

 

[metridium]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Didn't happen that way, though. None of the divers that I've dived with, including several instructors and dive shop owners, seem surprised. They tell me that most people like the standard jacket style BC's, and that it's rare to find someone who prefers the back inflate, and rarer still to find someone who prefers a BP/Wings setup. although it's common in cavers who dive multiple bottles.

If you look back in the archives, you'll see why I view dive shop owners' views on anything with a great deal of cynicism. I've had a few too many try lying to me to push their products, and I've also found a few too many who had opinions on anything and everything, whether they had a clue about it or not. Those opinions could usually be summed up as "Different/new = bad". YMMV, and I certainly hope it does.

SeaJay once bubbled...
Weird. It's not that I don't believe you... And I know what my experience was. My question is, "Why did you and I have such different results?"

Good question. Maybe you lucked into the exact BC that fits you perfectly? The ones I tried were always too small or too big. My BP is customized to me, though, simply by adjusting the webbing.

SeaJay once bubbled...
Weird. Have you seen the cover of this month's Scuba Diving magazine? There's a girl on the front cover ascending from a cave wearing a BP/Wings setup in a bikini.

Aha! Now you've found the one true drawback of the crotchstrap!

SeaJay once bubbled...
Those BC's were actually backplates covered in material with a bladder that went all the way around my body. To have them "float around" would have been pretty weird, and indicative only of a really poor fit.

Ah, internal plates. The jacket BCs I've used all lacked those.

SeaJay once bubbled...
Man... Why then was your experience so different from mine? I truly want to understand why someone would prefer the BP/Wing setup... I feel like I'm missing something really good.

My advice would be to find a Halcyon system to try out, and make sure it's properly fitted before setting out. If Halcyon is still running the 30-day money-back guarantee, I'd order one and try it. After you've had awhile to evaluate it properly, you can still return it if you wish. Your total cost would be shipping & handling...which is still less than you'd pay renting a BC for that time period.

SeaJay once bubbled...
On the other hand, I never got the Harley thing either.....Likewise, I just don't get the BP/Wings setup.

Equating a backplate with a Harley? That's certainly a concept I've never entertained before.

I don't think it really works, either. If I had to make an automotive analogy, I'd compare jacket-style BCs to suburban SUVs. I don't need to explain that one, do I?

SeaJay once bubbled...
I admit freely to being a newbie... So I'm open to the fact that I missed something here, but how in the world could someone make a 2" strap that goes right across your balls and then up your butt crack comfortable? I wasn't able to make it so. I mean, we aren't even talking about a rappeling harness or a parachute harness here, with holes for your legs in circular straps designed to hold your weight. We're talking across the family jewels here. How could that ever be described as "more comfortable" than nothing?

I simply don't notice the crotch strap if I'm not specifically thinking about it. It's more comfortable than without one, because the plate and tank don't shift around on my upper body during a dive.

BTW, that's with a 3mm, 7mm, or drysuit. I don't dive with anything lighter than the 3mm, so I can't comment on that. But there are posts in the archives from divers who use BPs with skins and report no problems whatsoever.

SeaJay once bubbled...
I was never truly objective to this test... I was FOR the BP/Wings setup based on what I was reading here.

Sorry, but the "DIR ****" comment makes me doubt that.

SeaJay once bubbled...
I was in FAVOR of them. I was totally unobjective. I was sure that I'd been diving with crappy gear, gear that was designed "for the people" and not anything special. I just couldn't make it work, though. It took me five dives to get me back to believing that I was actually of the ilk that a tried-and-true jacket design was my favorite.

If it works for you, go for it. After 150+ backplate dives and 30+ jacket dives, I know what works for me, too.

SeaJay once bubbled...
Hey, I've got an idea... I'm looking for a dive... Putting one together here in Beaufort, SC... A dive to the Betsy Ross (artificial reef) which is a 430' Liberty ship in 100 feet of water, about 15 miles off the coast in 80'-100' visibility.

Only 17 dives and you're already setting up trips to 100'?

Gotta ask: is your business dive-related?

SeaJay once bubbled...
...Or I can come to you. You in Florida with the rest of the cavers?

Interesting that you assume I'm in Florida with the rest of the cavers. Do you also assume I'm a DIR diver...one of the DIR **** you mentioned?

 

[Scubaroo]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I was very interested in the Balance, but chose to test out the Black Diamond, the next more expensive SeaQuest back inflate, because of the dual rear dumps instead of one, the extra pocket in the BC, the ability to use dual tanks, and the bigger bladder for more lift. Occassionally when I dive a site, I find something on the bottom of significant mass that I want to take with me to the surface... So I liked the idea of having a little more lift available to me without having to use a lift bag for everything.

DON'T use your BC as a liftbag! If you drop whatever you are retrieving (say a weightbelt - one of the more common finds) - you'll find yourself in Polaris mode heading straight to the surface and beyond. If you are going to recover something, do it properly and use a liftbag. It's oft repeated, but "there's nothing down there worth dying for".

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
gedunk,

My wings do not push me face down. I dive and teach in nothing but a wing and I do it for control and comfort. Only being over weighted and or having the weight in the wrong place will cause you to be pushed foreward.

First, when teaching i do overweight, to aid in slowing any break away ascents which may occur. Since this has happened to me twice in classes, i whole-heartly endorse this practice. Both times it aided in getting panic divers safely to the surface. But i don't believe this additional (2 or 3 lbs) of weight in itself causes an insurmountable problem with face down at the surface. IMO the rig i dive does. I'll admit i have not done a lot of experimentation with the rig since i only use it for non-teaching dives and the jacket type bc works so well for me. The wings rig works great for my pleasure diving so i leave it alone.

I'm using a old style Dive Rite classic bladder on SS backplate with the basic web belt type harness and twin Pst HP 80's. I like the streamlining of the no bullsh_t on the harness this affords. The only mods i've made to the rig are the addition of several d-rings on the harness & milling in a place for an adjustable weight pouch for up to six pounds between the twins. If i trim myself with the right amount of weight for my prefered slight head down/ feet up attitude, i will go face down on the surface, if no effort is made to stay face up.

Let me ask you this & then i'll shut up. Your all trimmed out, you get to the surface, establish positive buoyancy, then you pass out (okay not pass out but make no effort to stay up with hands or fins.) Do you go face down or not. If you say not, i honestly would love to talk to you about this topic because i am missing something here. I would love to teach in my wings but they simply don't provide the same stability on the surface as my jackets (Classic & Pro QD.)