My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[JamesK]

roakey once bubbled...

Let him contribute to eBay's bottom line in a year or two.

If he is still diving that far from now.

SeaJay, do me a favor, anyt time you go diving, let us know here. I will make sure to stay far away from that area.

I have sat here and read this entire thread, and it amazes me how you can not see arond your own ego and notice that the so called valid arguements you make are completely illogical. Normally I would make a long post in retrun to stuff like this, but all I can do this time is borrow a line from Neal boortz, and simply say "damn, just damn."


Maybe later when I come ou of my initial phase of shock, and have more time to type, I will make a nice long winded, but well thought out and logical post.

 

[TCDiver1]

You guys like your rigs, he likes his. Give him a break, he likes his jacket, nothing wrong with that. Somehow i think, with the type of critical thinking he is putting into this, that he will be just fine in the water with either.

SeaJay, if you ever get to Michigan, give me a call, we have some great wreck diving & i'd be happy to show it to you. And you have your own choice; jacket or wings!

 

[roakey]

JamesK wrote...
SeaJay, do me a favor, anyt time you go diving, let us know here. I will make sure to stay far away from that area.

Actually despite my “Mr. Hyde” persona on the board I’d rather dive with SeaJay and fix some of his misconceptions. What may seem intuitive and simpler at this point in time in his diving career is based on the fact that we’re a vertical animal. This is not lost on the mainstream equipment manufacturers and they design equipment to work well for beginners. Beginners typically have the seahorse model of trim rather than the barracuda model.

So it’s no surprise that a beginning diver finds equipment designed to be intuitive for beginning divers works better for him.

The problem is that the new diver’s intuition is all wrong, and you have to unlearn much of your land based, vertically-inspired thinking and reactions before you can move forward. Mainstream equipment defeats this progress by reinforcing your vertical habits (shoulder dumps are a PRIME example). You never get a chance to move forward.

This brings us back to the oft-repeated claim that a backplate is not for beginning divers, because proper trim is too difficult for new divers. Problem is, this puts the cart before the horse!

The actual problem is that correct trim is difficult to achieve with mainstream equipment. Not impossible, but more difficult. Now, a typical OW class is taught with mainstream equipment, so the twisted conclusion is that proper trim is difficult for a beginner. Not so if you put beginning divers in correct equipment in the first place. Then trim becomes easy and it’s something that’s easy to teach beginners.

Let me rephrase that, VERY easy.

I met a fellow volunteer up at the local aquarium a couple years ago who was a new OW student with about 10 dives under his belt. Scubaturek and I dragged him down to Blue Hole one weekend put him in a backplate and in ONE DIVE had him looking like a caver in terms of trim. He’s been back to Cozumel a couple times since then and can’t believe how much easier the diving is and how hard everyone else has to work at diving. He still has the puppy-on-the-leash problem, but he knows that and for the time being is willing to accept it.

Broken record time. Technical divers don’t dive different equipment because we want to be different, we dive it because it makes diving easier and safer. Note I didn’t say technical diving, I simply said diving.

Roak

 

[SeaJay]

divedivedive! once bubbled...
You know, if you're floating at the surface and can release all the air in your BC via your 3/4/100 dumps valves and *immediately* descend to a point below a passing boat (5m to be safe), then I'd venture to say that you're seriously overweighted. I dive in similar conditions - 80+ degree water - and I carry with me just enough weight (0 to 4 lbs, depending on wetsuit) to allow me to sink when I've completely exhaled. And the first 10ft of the descent go by sloooowly, until the neoprene compresses a little.

Now, is that 0 to 4 lbs with, or without your rig? 'Cause if that's 4 lbs with a SS BP and STA, then we're really talking about 12 lbs here of real weight... Which wouldn't be enough for most people in a 3/2 mil in salt water, especially if there's a current. Did you not read my comment on the weight? Specifically, I said that at Blue Grotto and Devil's Den I was using ~ 10 lbs. That's pretty normal for someone without a BP, a 3/2 mil, and fresh water.

But whatever. To me, it just looks like you wanted to flame. Okay, I suppose that makes you an accomplished flamer.

In other words... once you've gotten your weighting sorted (being new and all, trust me when I tell you that you can easily drop half of the weight on you),

Did a pool dive the other day... Found myself using 4 lbs in the beginning of the dive, even with a wetsuit. 'Course, I became a little too positively bouyant toward the end of the dive, so I stuck with 10 lbs and had much better luck. Perhaps YOU had the experience to '"drop half the weight" on yourself, but I was taught right from the beginning.

And obviously you haven't read the rest of this thread.

Not sure why anyone needs to deflate that fast, anyway.

Uhhhh... Boat, you drop your heavy catch, you want to get to the bottom fast, whatever.

If you're going to be carrying 20lb weights and drop them by accident underwater thus necessitating a rapid deflate - gee, either use a lift bag or stay the heck out of the water, you're a risk to everyone around you and yourself too.

I thought that the INTELLIGENT conversation went this way: "Hi, I'm SeaJay, and I found that in my situation, I like a jacket style BC best." <other people> "Hmmmm... What about this point? That point?" <me> "Nope, I found this... I found that... Hey, that's a great idea... Sure would like to get the chance to do it again." <you> "Ahhhh! You are messing up my little world... Get out of the water! Not a different opinion! I can't handle it! Get out! Get out!" (Keep in mind that you've never actually SEEN me in the water or dived with me, so how do you know what I'm like in the water?)

My point is that your post just looks like a flame. Your point, whatever it was, wasn't heard.

UP,

We can't save everyone from wasting money on "transitional" gear. With 17 dives under his belt he has all the answers and is an expert on the backplate/jacket comparison. Let him contribute to eBay's bottom line in a year or two.

Roak

Interesting. I come here and tell other newbies to "make sure and try it on for yourself because I'm not finding that I personally agree with everyone's opinions, and suddenly that makes me "an expert" and my gear "transitional" and "contributing to...eBay." Hmmmm.

I may only have 17 dives, and I've already admitted that I'm no expert. I simply posted my experiences (and I'll bet I went to greater lengths to properly test the gear than you did) here and everything's going to flames because of the fact that I have a different opinion from yours.

Yeah, I would say that's pretty "Nazi."

If he is still diving that far from now.

SeaJay, do me a favor, anyt time you go diving, let us know here. I will make sure to stay far away from that area.

Happily. Was it an opinion that didn't agree with yours that made you assume that I'm due for a watery coffin, or what? Different = bad? You DO realize that I'm doing everything by the PADI books, right? I guess those guys have no idea what they're talking about either. So is it just me, or is it all of the 90% of divers that prefer a jacket style BC that you won't dive with?

Last I saw, this conversation was going along pretty well without you.

I have sat here and read this entire thread, and it amazes me how you can not see arond your own ego and notice that the so called valid arguements you make are completely illogical. Normally I would make a long post in retrun to stuff like this, but all I can do this time is borrow a line from Neal boortz, and simply say "damn, just damn."

"My own ego?" Where in the world did you make the assumption that I had an ego? Must have been my sarcasm above. Or the fact that I had enough gumption to have my own opinion. Whatever. "Forgive me for having my own opinion, Master ****." Better?

Maybe later when I come ou of my initial phase of shock, and have more time to type, I will make a nice long winded, but well thought out and logical post.

Oh, thank you, Master ****. I was so hoping that you'd give me your precious time and opinion, since it's so much more valid than my own. <sic>

James, I'd have been a lot more open to your opinion (as in, "mine's no less valid than yours, and yours is no less valid than mine," but since you tore into me with that little rant up there, you ain't gettin' no respect from me about it.

I knew this thread couldn't go without flames. Thought for a moment there that it would... Too bad these guys showed up. Nothing like a little **** to pee in the water.

 

[SeaJay]

You guys like your rigs, he likes his. Give him a break, he likes his jacket, nothing wrong with that. Somehow i think, with the type of critical thinking he is putting into this, that he will be just fine in the water with either.

SeaJay, if you ever get to Michigan, give me a call, we have some great wreck diving & i'd be happy to show it to you. And you have your own choice; jacket or wings!

Thanks, bud!

Whew... Man, I thought I was losin' my mind up there. Suddenly this whole thread turned nasty. Thanks for calling me back into reality.

Okay, I promise not to flame. I promise not to flame. I promise not to flame. I promise not to...

...And I'll tell you what, gedunk... Consider yourself invited, too, to any wreck off the coast of South Carolina... On me.

And bring that wing. There's gotta be something I didn't do right...

 

[JamesK]

Roakey, good point.

SeaJay call me a **** all you want, it doesn't hurt. Atleast I am a Master ****.

Yes, I said your ego. You may not realize it, and I understand that being told that you are doing stuff that is dangerous (using your BC to bring up stuff more appopriate for a lift bag) is hard to swallow. Do stuff the PADI way all you want. Just because the PADI way gets you diving, does not mean it is the safest way to dive. PADI teaches you how to sit on the bottom of a pool, or a platform, and do your "skills". This simply is unacceptable to me. You should be taught your skills how you dive. You should be taught proper trim from the begining. PADI's was is simply the easiest to teach to newbies.

Forgive me if my last post seemed harsh, but you are not listening to what anyone is telling you. I am not trying to come down on you, I was simply shocked by some of the stuff you were saying. You are allowing yorself to do things that are unsafe, and I don't like to see anyone hurt. I am not saying that anyone who dives in a jacket style BC will kill themselves, so do not take it that way. I am talking about wnating to bring up 20lb object from the bottom. Please get yourself a lift bag.

Actually, next time I make a quarry trip, you are invited. I would love to dive with you. It could be a couple of months from now though, as all of my upcoming trips are cave dives.

I actually did make a long post in MSWord and responded to everything you wrote. However, I have decided to delete it and not post it.

I would like to give you one hint though, if you don't like the two inch crotch strap, get the 1 inch. I personally find it more comforable.

 

[miked]

Hi to all,
Not sure if this is the best thread to ask this question, but the thread is discussing comparisons.

As a "warm water recreational diver", from NJ, I do almost all of my diving at least "one flight" away from home.
My earliest set of gear (mid-70's vintage) included a hard plastic "backplate (?)-really a tank holder", with a web-belt harness, and the "horsecollar'"BC. [Although not of importance for this post, I currently use a WI back inflation BC.]
The plastic plate, while not particularly heavy, was a major pain to pack. My question: how are metal BP's in terms of "packability(?)", and weight, especially since my "gear suitcase" is getting close to the weight limits.
Thanks,
Mike

edited by Miked

 

[JamesK]

Mike, I find my backplate and wings much easier to pack than my backinfalte BC. Using an aluminum backplate helps keep the weight down too. This combination takes up MUCH less space then my bc.

 

[metridium]

SeaJay once bubbled...

So where are you keeping your lift bag, your ~200' of 100 lb test line (or more) and still remaining streamlined? Let's not forget that this is open ocean in most cases around here, so you've gotta have flares, a safety sausage, line for the wreck, lights (two for redundancy) and then your secondary (because you scoff at air integrated octos), and... Hey, what was that DIR philosophy again? "Simpler," right?

Dunno about UP, but I keep my SMB/lift bag in my backplate pocket, spools clipped off either to the rear crotchstrap D-ring or inside a drysuit thigh pocket, redundant lights secured to the harness in a very streamlined manner, and my secondary under my chin.

If you can think of a simpler, more streamlined approach, I'm all ears.

 

[metridium]

Hi, Mike.

miked wrote...
My question: how are metal BP's in terms of "packability(?)", and weight, especially since my "gear suitcase" is getting close to the weight limits.

My SS backplate and wing fit in my normal carryon, along with other gear and clothes. Security is sometimes curious, but it's been no big deal.