OP
Wayward Son
Contributor
yeah, and I have a bunch of 3442 tanks. Not the best ones for that setup.
Might Be Moving To Mobile
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DocCarl
Contributor
99% of my diving is 3442psi tanks. Around here (including Pensacola) your best bet is to leave the tanks for filling and pick them up a day (or two) later. Always check the pressure before paying, and ask to have the tanks topped off if you're not satisfied.
When I check pressures at room temp:
The best fill I've ever had was around 3550
More often than not, I'm seeing 3250 to 3350.
The worst was a 2900.
Of course, I'm not usually quite so picky unless I'm being charged a premium to fill my 'High Pressure' tanks
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Hetland
Contributor
If you're okay leaving your tanks overnight, you shouldn't have an issue. I usually get very close to 3442, and very close to my correct mix. I've had mixes a little lean, or a little rich just a handful of times over several years.
OP
Wayward Son
Contributor
it occurs to me that they might make more in the long run by having a bigger bank & being able to sell fills for a more reasonable price.
same thing up here, no one banks nitrox "because we don't sell enough to make it worth it", so you have to O2 clean you tanks & pay a premium for
fills.
A mix stick doesn't cost that much to make & you could fill up to 40% straight to the tank. Yeah, banks get costly to build but you don't have to build them in one shot, you can add on to them a bottle at a time so it doesn't hurt so much.
Oh well, at least there's a shop in the area.
same thing up here, no one banks nitrox "because we don't sell enough to make it worth it", so you have to O2 clean you tanks & pay a premium for
fills.
A mix stick doesn't cost that much to make & you could fill up to 40% straight to the tank. Yeah, banks get costly to build but you don't have to build them in one shot, you can add on to them a bottle at a time so it doesn't hurt so much.
Oh well, at least there's a shop in the area.
Hetland
Contributor
They can fill an AL80 in 4-5 minutes straight off the compressor, which is probably faster, or equal to what you can get off the banks, but without the extra labor and equipment costs of a bank. Nitrox is a small percentage of their fills, so I guess they're not interested in a stick system.
I think they charge what they can get, which is based more on convenience and lack of local competition than on what their actual costs are.
I got two tanks filled with nitrox in Pensacola a few weeks ago, and both tanks were mixed rich, and under filled. I "saved" a total of $5 off the experience, but I probably burned half of that in gas for my truck (I was in Pensacola, but not near the shop), and it would have been worth five extra dollars to get what I asked for.
Too bad Pat Green's shop is so far away. I could become seriously spoiled for $6 Nitrox fills.
I think they charge what they can get, which is based more on convenience and lack of local competition than on what their actual costs are.
I got two tanks filled with nitrox in Pensacola a few weeks ago, and both tanks were mixed rich, and under filled. I "saved" a total of $5 off the experience, but I probably burned half of that in gas for my truck (I was in Pensacola, but not near the shop), and it would have been worth five extra dollars to get what I asked for.
Too bad Pat Green's shop is so far away. I could become seriously spoiled for $6 Nitrox fills.
OP
Wayward Son
Contributor
my point is that if they had it readily available at a more reasonable price it could become a much larger percentage of their fills.
I don't buy it often bc it costs too much, it costs too much bc they don't sell enough, catch 22
I don't buy it often bc it costs too much, it costs too much bc they don't sell enough, catch 22
DocCarl
Contributor
Hetland:
If I'm not mistaken, the LDS compressor is outdoors. Running that thing in 95 degree Mobile afternoons to direct fill tanks can NOT be helping the cooling system. As a result, I'm willing to bet that the maintenance costs will be somewhat higher than they should be. It seems that a much more efficient approach would be to run the compressor during the cooler hours in the morning or evening, just to top off the (mythical) air banks. A decent cascade system would maximize the number of potential fills that could be obtained during periods of high customer demand. A blending stick would reduce the labor currently being used for partial pressure blending of the banks. I'm sure that the gas *could* be produced for much less than it currently is. . . . there's just no motivation for doing so.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with both of you guys.
When 99.9% of my diving was shore based, I didn't think twice about splurging on some EAN for a special trip out into the gulf. I might dive 6 or 8 tanks of Nitrox in a year. I might have save $50 or so a year by driving to PCB for gas fills. Obviously, it wasn't worth the hassle.
Now that a much larger percentage of my diving is in the 60'-120' range, the numbers paint a different picture. When I realized that it can cost me $55 more each week to fill all my tanks at shop "A" vs. shop "B". . . I quickly determined that I was talking about a best-case cost difference of $220 each month, or $2,800.00 annually. For me, that amount of money significantly impacts my ability to dive as frequently as I'd like.
Of course Pat's place is a 6 hour round trip, so It's not exactly feasible for me to swing by after work! What is feasible for me, however, is this: I never refill tanks in Mobile unless I know that I need them for a certain trip in the next couple of days. I just leave them in my garage. If I have an opportunity to head to PCB (or Marianna) I just take the empties along for the ride, and fill them up while I'm in town. Panama City Dive Charters' fill system consistently gives me solid, room temperature 3,442psi fills at 32% (+/- a couple of tenths), and it does it in about 30 minutes. Filling my tanks like this has also stopped me from repeating a rather painful mistake I've made in the past: dumping full tanks of air because I suddenly found out that I needed EAN in them for the next day. Conversely, I haven't 'had' to waste Nitrox at a shallow shore site in a long time, either.
In my opinion, the statement: "Nitrox isn't a large portion of our gas sales, therefore we don't see the need to invest in an efficient system" is essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd be up there getting several fills each week if it was cost effective for me to do so. It isn't, so I'm not. There are people in Mobile that have their own compressors and blend their own Nitrox for this reason. There are also at least a few that I know of in the Pensacola area that do the same. For someone living in PCB, I can't imagine even consider going with a private system. . . not with Pat's capacity and prices. I'll happily give Pat all my gas money. . any time I'm nearby!
Carl
If I'm not mistaken, the LDS compressor is outdoors. Running that thing in 95 degree Mobile afternoons to direct fill tanks can NOT be helping the cooling system. As a result, I'm willing to bet that the maintenance costs will be somewhat higher than they should be. It seems that a much more efficient approach would be to run the compressor during the cooler hours in the morning or evening, just to top off the (mythical) air banks. A decent cascade system would maximize the number of potential fills that could be obtained during periods of high customer demand. A blending stick would reduce the labor currently being used for partial pressure blending of the banks. I'm sure that the gas *could* be produced for much less than it currently is. . . . there's just no motivation for doing so.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with both of you guys.
When 99.9% of my diving was shore based, I didn't think twice about splurging on some EAN for a special trip out into the gulf. I might dive 6 or 8 tanks of Nitrox in a year. I might have save $50 or so a year by driving to PCB for gas fills. Obviously, it wasn't worth the hassle.
Now that a much larger percentage of my diving is in the 60'-120' range, the numbers paint a different picture. When I realized that it can cost me $55 more each week to fill all my tanks at shop "A" vs. shop "B". . . I quickly determined that I was talking about a best-case cost difference of $220 each month, or $2,800.00 annually. For me, that amount of money significantly impacts my ability to dive as frequently as I'd like.
Of course Pat's place is a 6 hour round trip, so It's not exactly feasible for me to swing by after work! What is feasible for me, however, is this: I never refill tanks in Mobile unless I know that I need them for a certain trip in the next couple of days. I just leave them in my garage. If I have an opportunity to head to PCB (or Marianna) I just take the empties along for the ride, and fill them up while I'm in town. Panama City Dive Charters' fill system consistently gives me solid, room temperature 3,442psi fills at 32% (+/- a couple of tenths), and it does it in about 30 minutes. Filling my tanks like this has also stopped me from repeating a rather painful mistake I've made in the past: dumping full tanks of air because I suddenly found out that I needed EAN in them for the next day. Conversely, I haven't 'had' to waste Nitrox at a shallow shore site in a long time, either.
In my opinion, the statement: "Nitrox isn't a large portion of our gas sales, therefore we don't see the need to invest in an efficient system" is essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd be up there getting several fills each week if it was cost effective for me to do so. It isn't, so I'm not. There are people in Mobile that have their own compressors and blend their own Nitrox for this reason. There are also at least a few that I know of in the Pensacola area that do the same. For someone living in PCB, I can't imagine even consider going with a private system. . . not with Pat's capacity and prices. I'll happily give Pat all my gas money. . any time I'm nearby!
Carl
OP
Wayward Son
Contributor
I agree. I'd rather just keep 32% in everything but at $18 per fill won't be able to. If I go to PCB to dive Pat's my goto shop, however at 3 hrs from mobile I'll likely dive closer more often.
But that's a $12 per tank difference in cost, $24 per diver for a 2 tank trip & I have zero doubts about the quality of the fill. 2 - 3 divers per trip, that's enough to offset the cost of the drive over to dive.
This is the kind of thing that can push business away from the shop.
But that's a $12 per tank difference in cost, $24 per diver for a 2 tank trip & I have zero doubts about the quality of the fill. 2 - 3 divers per trip, that's enough to offset the cost of the drive over to dive.
This is the kind of thing that can push business away from the shop.
DocCarl
Contributor
To be completely fair, the pricing is tiered on the rated capacity of the tank. The $18 includes sales tax (10% in Mobile) and is pretty much the worst-case scenario. . . my 120cf tanks. It's a couple of bucks less for my HP 100s ($15.xx after tax), and I think that AL80s are around $12.
Additionally, if you leave the tanks for at least a day or two, you can definitely get good fills and spot on custom mixes for that price. I'm not trying to steer anyone away form the business in general: the shop is run by some REALLY great folks, and it's definitely worth stopping in to say hello and look around. I'm in there frequently to pick up odds and ends, grab gas fills for the next day, or sometimes just to say hello and catch up. They have a very nice indoor training pool, which can come in handy.
There is a wonderful local community of divers that are (more or less) connected through GCD. We usually try to arrange a social thing every other month or so, just as a meet-&-greet for dinner and drinks at one of the local restaurants. I think Hetland already provided a link to the FB page for the group.
Anyways,
Looking forward to seeing you down here!
Hetland
Contributor
A bank is going to dramatically increase the labor investment in filling each tank, and, it will probably take longer to fill each tank. This is before you drop a load of cash for brass or stainless tubing, bank cylinders, valves, gauges, tubing, and the yearly maintenance required on each element. Since most of the fills they do are on shop tanks, they can do their fills at any time of the day.
Most divers that go through a dive shop get their OW cert, dive a few times, and give it up, or, they dive once or twice a year on vacation (aka, not in Mobile). Look at the mountain of air tanks at GCD, and then look at the nitrox tanks, about 70% of which, belong to shop employees, or are rentals. GCD has been in business since 1972, and there are probably scores of shops within a 50-mile radius that have come and gone during that same period. I have to believe they know what they're doing, even if it results in me paying $2.50 more for a nitrox fill.
Most divers that go through a dive shop get their OW cert, dive a few times, and give it up, or, they dive once or twice a year on vacation (aka, not in Mobile). Look at the mountain of air tanks at GCD, and then look at the nitrox tanks, about 70% of which, belong to shop employees, or are rentals. GCD has been in business since 1972, and there are probably scores of shops within a 50-mile radius that have come and gone during that same period. I have to believe they know what they're doing, even if it results in me paying $2.50 more for a nitrox fill.
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