Merged: Liability Releases - shop sued diver's death, Catalina Island 2005

[ROMO DIVER]

I do not know what you consider a lot of gas but 500 psi is not it in my book. I am not sure what "real reason" you are talking about but I do not believe that breathing down to less than 500 psi serves any real purpose. 500 psi gives a better safety benefit than an EXTRA minute or two of safety stop. The safety benefit I am talking about is not so much for the diver but for those around them. If another diver gets in trouble 500 psi will go a lot further to actually allowing you to help than 200 psi.

Also, I am not sure who "we" is but I know that neither I nor any other instructors that I know have done away with the added safety of a 500 psi surface pressure.

 

[Thalassamania]

Hm ... 500 psi at, say, 15 ft, with a SAC rate of 0.7 gives you more than 10 extra minutes, I'd call that substantial extra padding when you're say ... 4 days steam from even the possibility of a helo evac.

 

[David_57]

I must be missing something thought he was at 80 plus feet when he had a OOA situation so 500 PSI not so much especially if he is supposed to add his buddy to the equation, also consider the SPG could be off which is the case, sure if you are pussy footing is 15ft of water 500 psi will last but that is not the case being discussed. Better to over estimate a little than under estimate IMHO.

 

[OldNSalty]

I must be missing something thought he was at 80 plus feet when he had a OOA situation so 500 PSI not so much especially if he is supposed to add his buddy to the equation, also consider the SPG could be off which is the case, sure if you are pussy footing is 15ft of water 500 psi will last but that is not the case being discussed. Better to over estimate a little than under estimate IMHO.

I think the real point isn’t how deep and how long you can go with 500 psi (plus or minus 150) but the stupidity of the entire thing.

1) A dive shop that makes you sign a release in an effort to put ALL the responsibility on you including the quality of their air.
2) A system that lets you out of the release if you can find just one technical flaw (multi-day? No, I only dove one time)
3) The fact that the family can sue the dive shop for what appears to be diver error.
4) Running out of air at 80 feet (even if the gauge was off by 150 psi-Honestly! I Can’t even read 150 psi on my old gauge)

It was been said many times before on here-take responsibility for yourself.

 

[D_B]

a simple rule like back on the boat with 500psi does not work with those that need such a rule, They do not look at their SPG often enough, or even at all in the first place,

 

[David_57]

One has to wonder what was his way-point?

 

[drbill]

We did away with hard and fast rule concerning, "500 psi back on the boat," decades ago.

The advent of computers made having a lot of gas on your back when you climb out rather foolish, since it could be used to hang out at 10 to 20 feet under the boat and thus increase both your dive time and your decompression safety. But it sounds like the real reason for such a change has been lost and now many divers are just ignoring the need for any margin.

The boats I dive off here still hold to that rule, although they no longer check to ensure it is followed. I agree with your thinking about computers allowing us the luxury of not following it... at least for experienced divers. However, the divers who really need to follow this rule are largely the ones that don't.

A few years ago I pushed the limit a bit as I found something I rarely see and wanted to film it. I was in 15-20 ft at the time and breathed my tank down to about 300 psi. I knew there was a current and I was upcurrent from the dive boat. Wen I surfaced, I swam on my back so I wouldn't suck my tank dry (no snorkel). The current was so strong I was blown past the boat in no time and had to hang on a current line for about 20 minutes (with 17 other divers) before getting pulled in. The current was so strong it was whipping the current line around and submerging us frequently. At that point I wished I had surfaced with 500-1,000 psi!

 

[fisheater]

A few years ago I pushed the limit a bit as I found something I rarely see and wanted to film it. I was in 15-20 ft at the time and breathed my tank down to about 300 psi. I knew there was a current and I was upcurrent from the dive boat. Wen I surfaced, I swam on my back so I wouldn't suck my tank dry (no snorkel). The current was so strong I was blown past the boat in no time and had to hang on a current line for about 20 minutes (with 17 other divers) before getting pulled in. The current was so strong it was whipping the current line around and submerging us frequently. At that point I wished I had surfaced with 500-1,000 psi!

Or, that you'd stashed a snorkel in a pocket.

 

[Thalassamania]

There's no doubt that there are situations where there is an unexpected need for some more air, yours was a good example (thought a simple snorkel might have served as well). Your point about experience is also well taken, that gives a diver a reasonable chance at predicting when it will be important to have some extra reserve and when that is likely to be irrelevant, as well as equipping the diver with the requisite skills when that evaluation is a little off.

As far as the case under consideration is concerned, there is no doubt in my mind that some level of "blame" falls on the diver and some level falls on the shop, what is up to the court to decide is just how much should be apportioned to each. I'd say that the diver gets the lion's share.

 

[drbill]

Or, that you'd stashed a snorkel in a pocket.

True... I don't dive with a snorkel and that was a situation where it would have been useful. No pockets on my tech gear to stash one, and they get in the way when I'm filming.

@Thal: I still fail to see where the shop is at fault in this incident.