Suggestion Memorial vs accident analysis

[cornfed]

I realize I'm going to be called heartless for this but... Is there anyway to stop people from posting condolences in the accident analysis threads? It is difficult to discuss accidents when the thread is constantly being interrupted by people offering condolences. TDS has two separate forums one for accident analysis and one for memorial threads. I think SB should consider doing this as well.

 

[DandyDon]

I think that the Mods have to suggest to NetDoc & Advisors on what is best for ScubaBoard, and - I would think this would be....

 

[Snowbear]

No Don - most suggestions come from non-mod members. That's what the Suggestions forum is for.

Last I heard, Doc is out of town right now, so don't expect him to respond to this request immediately.

 

[DandyDon]

No Don - most suggestions come from non-mod members. That's what the Suggestions forum is for.

Last I heard, Doc is out of town right now, so don't expect him to respond to this request immediately.

Ah, okay - well, ultimately the decision will be based on what's best, I'm sure. Thanks.

 

[Cacia]

pilot since I was 16 and have spent more than one hangar flying session where a fellow pilot's accident or death was analyzed, speculated, discussed or what ever you want to call it. Fully determining and understanding what happened is only a small part of what it's about. It does become largely hypothetical at times but that process is important as it casues the people involves to think about possible responses and consequenses to those situations and that goes an awful long way toward mentally paving the way to make the correct decisions when a similar or related event occurs to anyone involved in the discussion.

Brilliant. This viewpoint is smart because it acknowledges that we are not trying to solve a crime or convict someone, but rather have a mental exercise. The same thing in hospitals used to be called "M&M" conference and here the physicians would discuss hyptheticals and how it applied to their practice, what the various implications are, etc. I think it is a very powerful learning tool and I am disappointed when people think it is only a fact-finding mission because they have missed the point. The actual facts of the accident, are perhaps even not so important as the scenarios motivated participants think through and attempt to problem solve.

Having the families in these threads, unless they enter a thread with the intention of the discussion (as did Greenhulk's brave mother in the case of her son's recent death) only impedes this process. I usge the board to just seperate the two threads and make things more humane for all involved.

 

[Darnold9999]

I've been a pilot since I was 16 and have spent more than one hangar flying session where a fellow pilot's accident or death was analyzed, speculated, discussed or what ever you want to call it. Fully determining and understanding what happened is only a small part of what it's about. It does become largely hypothetical at times but that process is important as it casues the people involves to think about possible responses and consequenses to those situations and that goes an awful long way toward mentally paving the way to make the correct decisions when a similar or related event occurs to anyone involved in the discussion.

Completely agree with this point of view.

The "facts" of a situation are rarely fully known. Speculation in an accident analysis forum provides a valuable tool for all. Adds to the what if checklist we all carry and builds a better toolkit for solving problems under pressure. Better to think about and mentally rehearse your reactions on the surface then try to develop a response in an emergency with impaired judgement at depth.

In my view, speculate away - it only adds to the value of the discussion.

Yes there are idiots who appear knowledgeable, so what. You have to read everything in all mediums with the understanding that the person that wrote it may not actually know what they are talking about, and apply your own critical analysis (or read the next post which rips the idiot to shreds)

 

[Missdirected]

Very true, the two objectives cannot be met in the same thread. One objective is to express your sorrow to the family and Board for the misfortune, while the other is analysis to help other divers, and yourself, avoid and understand the accident.

I agree with DA 100%

Pilot what you guys tried to do in that other thread was highly inapproapriate and self-serving in my opinion. It cheapened the thread and was immoral IMHO.

Starting a SEPERATE thread like this is much more in line with SB.

 

[diverbrian]

Pilots aren't in the only industry where the real incident may never be completely understood but it gets analyzed anyways.

I was in the nuclear power industry. We studied the scenarios of what happened at Chernobyl and other sites. Some involved deaths. The logs and "black boxes" were destroyed in the casualty. Maybe the logs were hurridly taken by operators trying to prevent what happened. We put ourselves in the possible situations to ensure that it didn't happen to us while we studied the incident reports.

When I got involved in diving and later involved in technical diving, I learned to do the same thing. If something happens to me, I want it used to prevent it from happening to someone else. And maybe the incident that the speculation (which the other divers tend to control a little bit) prevents wasn't identical to mine because the speculation caused someone to think and their circumstances weren't quite the same! That is great too! Don't wash it over with platitudes about how nice of a guy that I was. Save that for another area if people feel the need say that. Use the accident to generate discussion that may make someone else dive more safely.

The other side of the story is that when you are dealing with human feelings, it is never quite that simple. Using myself as an example, maybe a few of my friends don't care to see what happened or think about it. If something happens to one of my buddies, I am not quite as likely to jump into an accident analysis thread on their accident for obvious reasons. It would be difficult for me to be objective until later and that is required for good analysis of known details. Good analysis can sound very cold-hearted for good reasons. People don't want their close friends picked apart when they are mourning them.

I think that the idea has merit to split out the memorials and the analysis in this cases.

 

[Cacia]

I agree with DA 100%

Pilot what you guys tried to do in that other thread was highly inapproapriate and self-serving in my opinion. It cheapened the thread and was immoral IMHO.

Starting a SEPERATE thread like this is much more in line with SB.

Well, I did not see it. But I have seen people stumble in and say "oh my gosh, that is so sad..what happened?" and then a bunch of misplaced grief gets dumped on the poor soul and they end up feeling bad. I remember thinking BJD would have never been this unkind to someone and if they really want to honor his spirit then, just say " PF we will look at that in another thread, okay...and yes, it is very sad..." something like that. BJD made Christians look good by how he treated people. Those are the people I admire.

Telling the person they are immoral because YOU think they asked an inappropriate question at an inappropriate time just serves no good purpose except to pile on someone. This is a time when everyone needs to be extra kind to everyone else.

I believe you said things about me too, in MOF. I am not sure why. I just think your timing was poor form as well. I am really tired of PF being the fun dog to kick.

Miss, I like to think of it this way. My Nana always taught me proper etiquette has the underlying sole purpose of putting people at ease. So, if someone uses the wrong desert spoon at the soup course you don't tell them in front of everyone at the table and try and make them look bad.

My personal opinion is that there should be two threads and that perhaps the accident analysis should be opened at some said time delay, say 1-2 weeks from the time of the death. What I do not feel reflects well on us is to have different practices depending on who the person is, with the exception of a direct request by the immediate family. If we follow the principle that it is insensitive and not appropriate, then that is fine. If SB policy is as Uncle Pug has voiced in the past, that it is a useful endeavor to be embraced, then I think that we have an obligation to apply it to all victims. The exception to both should be if at either time the victim's wishes are known or the immediate family makes a request. Just my thoughts. I am dealing with an employee who shot himself this week, so I am reflective I suppose.

I think any mistakes made at a time like this by any of us are "mistakes of the hand and not the heart".

 

[DandyDon]

Well, I did not see it. But I have seen people stumble in and say "oh my gosh, that is so sad..what happened?" and then a bunch of misplaced grief gets dumped on the poor soul and they end up feeling bad. I remember thinking BJD would have never been this unkind to someone and if they really want to honor his spirit then, just say " PF we will look at that in another thread, okay...and yes, it is very sad..." something like that. BJD made Christians look good by how he treated people. Those are the people I admire.

Telling the person they are immoral because YOU think they asked an inappropriate question at an inappropriate time just serves no good purpose except to pile on someone. This is a time when everyone needs to be extra kind to everyone else.

I believe you said things about me too, in MOF. I am not sure why. I just think your timing was poor form as well. I am really tired of PF being the fun dog to kick.

Miss, I like to think of it this way. My Nana always taught me proper etiquette has the underlying sole purpose of putting people at ease. So, if someone uses the wrong desert spoon at the soup course you don't tell them in front of everyone at the table and try and make them look bad.

Well said - but no surprise there.

 

[TSandM]

One of the things I get the most out of reading is accident and near miss reports and analyses. Like catherine, I come out of the medical tradition of Mortality & Morbidity conferences, where our dirty linen is aired in the hopes that someone else won't make the same mistakes. And like so many other posters, if anything should happen to me diving, I want the incident raked over the coals and the causes dissected, even if it's largely speculation . . . because even trying to construct a hypothetical sequence that could lead to the described accident can be useful in preventing someone else from making those mistakes, even if they weren't precisely the ones I made.

It seems to me that all too often, people object to "speculation" because they don't want their particular sacred cow to be what the fingers are pointed at . . . rebreathers are a specific, but not the only, example. Nevertheless, I've learned a lot about rebreathers by reading the criticisms that people have made of them in reference to accidents. Modes of failure have been described -- this is good information, even if it may not be terribly pertinent to what is ultimately determined -- if anything is ultimately determined -- to be the cause of the accident in question.

One must step back and do accident analysis as a cerebral, rather than a visceral activity. A separate forum for condolences might foster a dispassionate approach in the accident forum. Or not. The behavior of individuals on SB is not particularly predictable.