Suggestion Memorial vs accident analysis

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OP
cornfed

cornfed

Mindless lemming
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I realize I'm going to be called heartless for this but... Is there anyway to stop people from posting condolences in the accident analysis threads? It is difficult to discuss accidents when the thread is constantly being interrupted by people offering condolences. TDS has two separate forums one for accident analysis and one for memorial threads. I think SB should consider doing this as well.
 
There is another problem in all of this as well. There are very few people actually capable of accident 'analysis'. There are many though capable of accident 'speculation'.
jagfish:
To be fair, part of the problem Kim alludes to is that adequate facts seldom come to light, inhibiting the shift from speculation to analysis.
The purpoe for the Accident forum is for us to learn, right? I do not see a problem even here - unless you want to discourage Accident discussion...?

Since we no longer allow the injured divers' names to be posted in Accidents, this would prevent the possibility of some love one Googling the name and stubbling into the thread.

I like the idea of two forums.
 
Accident analysis threads on the internet solves just about nothing since few of us have much of any inside info on any accident. It turns into speculation which doesn't help anyone but in fact can instead put out bad information.

One of the dangers of the internet, dealing with idiots who appear to be knowledgeable.
 
DandyDon:
The purpoe for the Accident forum is for us to learn, right? I do not see a problem even here - unless you want to discourage Accident discussion...?
I already said that personally I see merit in the idea of two forums. As for learning from accidents - yes sure. To learn anything worthwhile from an accident one requires facts...and then analysis. Speculation doesn't teach me anything that can't be gleaned from discussing hypothetical situations. I have no wish to discourage genuine discussion but I do wish that people would bear in mind the reality sometimes - and if they don't know what the reality is/was....then keep silent. It's completely different from discussing which BCD or regulator is better IMO.
 
I've been a pilot since I was 16 and have spent more than one hangar flying session where a fellow pilot's accident or death was analyzed, speculated, discussed or what ever you want to call it. Fully determining and understanding what happened is only a small part of what it's about. It does become largely hypothetical at times but that process is important as it casues the people involves to think about possible responses and consequenses to those situations and that goes an awful long way toward mentally paving the way to make the correct decisions when a similar or related event occurs to anyone involved in the discussion.

The thing is, if you take the moral high ground and disuss and speculate about only purely hypothetical situations rather than accidents, then the discussion has no weigtht or validity as in the back of your mind, the potential exists to think...yeah, like that could really happen. So, like it or not, the process is much more realistic and effective when a body is involved, even if the actual facts remain somewhat nebulous and hypothetical.

As a pilot, and as a diver, I understand that speculating about accidents is one of the crucial ways that people learn disseminate and process information to better develop their fund of responses when things go wrong. For a pilot, when things go south you often have little time to formulate the correct response and that sort of precontemplation over someone elses accident and/or death and the responses they could have, should have, or would have made is vital. As a diver you may also have time pressure and/or you may have to make the decision under the effects of narcosis, and if you have not considered responses before, you are in a poor position to consider them now, in what may otherwise be your final moments.

So as both a pilot and a diver, I fully expect and even demand that people freely pick the bones of what ever accident killed me apart, even if some suggest I had a brain fart and caused my own demise, which in the majority of cases is usually true to some extent somewhere in the chain of events that led to the accident where a better choice would have broken the chain. I'd greatly prefer to have it discussed, speculated and maybe even known exactly how I screwed up, as the speculation and precontemplation that occurs may save one more person froma death or accident that would otherwise occur. I'll regard it as the last service I can provide to either of those fine commuities that I belonged to.

I appreciate the need for an appropriate amout of sentiment and the need to carry a due amount of respect for the departed, but we also need to get on with living and discussion, analyzing, and speculating, even the wild totally unsupported kind, has a vital role to play in that.
 
Well said DA and I do agree that an accident discussion involving a real accident seems to carry more validity than a purely hypothetical situation. If I die while diving I want my accident discussed and have a section in my will to explain how I feel.
I agree with cornfed that there should be two forums.
 
DA Aquamaster:
I've been a pilot since I was 16 and have spent more than one hangar flying session where a fellow pilot's accident or death was analyzed, speculated, discussed or what ever you want to call it. Fully determining and understanding what happened is only a small part of what it's about. It does become largely hypothetical at times but that process is important as it causes the people involves to think about possible responses and consequences to those situations and that goes an awful long way toward mentally paving the way to make the correct decisions when a similar or related event occurs to anyone involved in the discussion.

The thing is, if you take the moral high ground and discuss and speculate about only purely hypothetical situations rather than accidents, then the discussion has no weight or validity as in the back of your mind, the potential exists to think...yeah, like that could really happen. So, like it or not, the process is much more realistic and effective when a body is involved, even if the actual facts remain somewhat nebulous and hypothetical.

As a pilot, and as a diver, I understand that speculating about accidents is one of the crucial ways that people learn disseminate and process information to better develop their fund of responses when things go wrong. For a pilot, when things go south you often have little time to formulate the correct response and that sort of contemplation over someone else's accident and/or death and the responses they could have, should have, or would have made is vital. As a diver you may also have time pressure and/or you may have to make the decision under the effects of narcosis, and if you have not considered responses before, you are in a poor position to consider them now, in what may otherwise be your final moments.

So as both a pilot and a diver, I fully expect and even demand that people freely pick the bones of what ever accident killed me apart, even if some suggest I had a brain fart and caused my own demise, which in the majority of cases is usually true to some extent somewhere in the chain of events that led to the accident where a better choice would have broken the chain. I'd greatly prefer to have it discussed, speculated and maybe even known exactly how I screwed up, as the speculation and precontemplation that occurs may save one more person froma death or accident that would otherwise occur. I'll regard it as the last service I can provide to either of those fine commuities that I belonged to.

I appreciate the need for an appropriate amout of sentiment and the need to carry a due amount of respect for the departed, but we also need to get on with living and discussion, analyzing, and speculating, even the wild totally unsupported kind, has a vital role to play in that.
I agree with this post 100%.

When we start talking about a real accident, postulating, hypothesizing, speculating, even guessing, we are putting ourselves at the scene and mentally rehearsing what we would do - maybe even changing what we would do. This might sound dramatic but, I think it does save lives. The problem is, we can't measure the accidents that don't happen. Some people's hearts are so soft toward the deceased that they forget to care about protecting the living.

I know that I have made decisions at the dive site or during a dive that have been influenced by accident discussions.

As to the original question, yes, I would like to see the separation. Words of condolences are cheapened by inappropriate speculation, and accident discussion is stifled by the inevitable arguments over respect for the deceased and their families in the analysis threads.

Separate them for everyone's sake.

(Note: I'm speaking as a member here, not a Mod.)
 
(Note: I'm speaking as a member here, not a Mod.)
I understand that anytime a Mod participates in a thread discussion, then s/he does so as a member, not posting as a Mod - but it is good to express that now and then.

In a Site Support forum especially so...
 
Maybe we could have three sub forums, memorial, facts, speculation and WAGS
 
DA Aquamaster:
So as both a pilot and a diver, I fully expect and even demand that people freely pick the bones of what ever accident killed me apart, even if some suggest I had a brain fart and caused my own demise, which in the majority of cases is usually true to some extent somewhere in the chain of events that led to the accident where a better choice would have broken the chain.

I totally agree. Having been both a flight instructor and having had the unpleasant task of conducting an aircraft accident board of inquiry I have learned the lesson many times that there is not usually a single cause of an accident. When I instructed in the simulator it was always the debrief that brought some clarity to the situation. When the crew was shown how the impact of one action/inaction on another they truly learned. The accident board of inquiry report assigned multiple cause factors. This is typical of the investigation process. Some of the cause factors were directly on the crew, some were attributed to the system (from training, through maintenance, through flight rules to operational techniques), and some were attributed to supervisors. The message was clear that it takes more than one step to make an accident.

One of the difficulties that I have when reading the accident forums is that, too often, people are looking for the "silver bullet" that is the cause of the accident. It is more than likely that the series of events had multiple points where a different action taken would have led to a different outcome.

Even "the straw that broke the camel's back" started with something. The last straw was just the culmination and not the exclusive cause.
 
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