Medical Approval Issues

[RJP]

As for me, whether I wind up telling the truth on my forms or not, I plan to verbally inform my dive instructors and buddy divers of my asthma and show them in my bag where my emergency inhaler is just in case they need to help me with it.

You would stop being my student the moment you told me you lied on your medical form.

---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 04:54 PM ----------

Only that, to me, it seems very limited in that respect and a much better form could be designed if that was the intent.

It's not the intent... but it can become a possible use.

 

[panzerbjorne]

You would stop being my student the moment you told me you lied on your medical form.

What makes you think I'd ever admit to that? Saying "No" to one of the questions is a personal decision, not a lie. I've been checked-out and cleared by multiple doctors, none of whom were willing to be liable for a potentially risky sport that has nothing to do with my medical state. If you talk to your doctor and say, "Hey doc, I'd like to get into base-jumping, can I get your sign-off on that? The base jumping foundation wants a medical signature that says I'm fit enough to do it." They're likely going to say, "No, base-jumping is dangerous no matter who you are, I'm not willing to sign off on that because I know you'll die within 3 years if you continue doing it." It's unrealistic to expect doctors to take on the liability for a personal decision to get involved in the sport. It has inherent risks and dangers regardless of personal health and fitness, but there were no questions (or even warnings) concerning that on the form, was there?

 

[redacted]

So you do understand that the majority of divers fully understand how these medical release forms work. They understand that a wrong answer to any question, even if it has been established in coordination with a doctor that the condition has no effect on diving, must result in the denial of service. And you really think folks are going to answer YES to a sinus condition they had 20 years ago?
.

Wait, what?

I have trained a great many divers who had "YES" responses on their medical forms.

---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 04:25 PM ----------
.

I used the term "wrong answer". To me, and I suspect most would understand, that is a YES with no current letter signed by a doctor indicating that the condition is not a problem for scuba diving. And then you just have to hope that the provider is not over-booked and accepts the letter. Sorry, I am not going through that expense and nut-roll. I will provide the op the required liability protection. I will also tell them about anything they may need to know about me. But that will not be on the form. If an op is not satisfied with that, I'll spend my money elsewhere.

 

[RJP]

What makes you think I'd ever admit to that?

You really need to get your story straight...

Whether I wind up telling the truth on my forms or not, I plan to verbally inform my dive instructors and buddy divers of my asthma and show them in my bag where my emergency inhaler is just in case they need to help me with it.

---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 06:15 PM ----------

It's unrealistic to expect doctors to take on the liability for a personal decision to get involved in the sport. It has inherent risks and dangers regardless of personal health and fitness, but there were no questions (or even warnings) concerning that on the form, was there?

A.) Millions of divers have received medical clearance from a physician. In the grand scheme of things it is not a problem. Might the odd physician refuse to sign... sure. My own experience is that situation is exceedingly rare.

B.) Have you ever read anything you've signed vis-a-vis the risks associated with diving?

 

[panzerbjorne]

Even if I were able to get a doc's note to dive, I'd still have asthma. So you mean to tell me that if I have a doc's note to dive and I tell you where my emergency inhaler is, you'd refuse me as a student? That's pretty messed-up!

So in reality, you're actually a Neo-Nazi who believes that the Aryan race is the only suitable class of people for diving? That's awesome!

BTW - Hitler isn't AOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqWSbJRrOI

 

[RJP]

Even if I were able to get a doc's note to dive, I'd still have asthma. So you mean to tell me that if I have a doc's note to dive and I tell you where my emergency inhaler is, you'd refuse me as a student? That's pretty messed-up!

So in reality, you're actually a Neo-Nazi who believes that the Aryan race is the only suitable class of people for diving? That's awesome!

Reductio ad Hitlerum? [/argument]

PS - you may also need to get the prescription on your reading comprehension glasses checked. I said I'd drop you as a student if I found out you lied on the medical statement. If you checked "YES" for asthma and then got your doctor to clear you for diving... that's not lying. That's what you're supposed to do.

That being said, how does one use an emergency inhaler at depth?

 

[Iralub]

Let's be very, very clear here...

It is extremely easy to sue someone... potentially bankrupting them in the process.

The fact that the plaintiff may not actually prevail in court would be of limited solace.


I wonder whether we are at cross purposes due to differing legal cultures. Here in Australia, prospects of success plays a huge role in determining if a lawsuit is filed.
If you file a lawsuit and lose, you have to pay the other's legal costs, making filing lawsuits that you can't win a very risky business.
Both lawyer and litigant have to sign a declaration that there are reasonable prospects of success and lawyers who advise a client to file or continue a lawsuit that has no reasonable prospect of succeding can be subject to disciplinary sanctions and personal costs orders.

Further, prior to taking on a case on speculative fee basis (pretty much the only way most people can afford legal representation), the lawyer will consider prospects of success and usually decline to act unless there is a good chance of winning (and therefore getting paid).

That does not, of course, prevent all vexatious litigation, but it makes getting sued much less likely if the plaintiff has poor chances of winning.

I admit I'm not sure how it works in US.

 

[panzerbjorne]

That being said, how does one use an emergency inhaler at depth?

Who said anything about using an inhaler at-depth? The first obvious misunderstanding you're having is about how asthma works. It's not a complete loss of breathing function, it's a mild to serious constriction of the bronchea leading to reduced lung function which merely makes it harder to breathe. If you had an attack at depth (and I've read plenty of reports about it happening to asthmatics who've been medically cleared for diving, all of whom were able to get out of the water safely during an attack) you'd surface as normal with all the normal safety stops but you may need assistance from a buddy or DM on the way. When you've surfaced, you use the inhaler, problem solved. You're done diving for the day, and may want to reconsider if diving is for you.

You seem to assume that having an asthma attack while in water is going to kill, or even hurt, someone. DAN and the UMHS show no significant increased risk for barotrauma for divers with asthma (even severe asthma) and estimates that as of 1997 4-5% of divers had asthma. It's 2015 and there's no such thing as "unmanaged asthma" - the worst mistake an asthmatic diver could make is to forget to take their meds prior to a dive and put themselves at an increased risk of an attack, which will do nothing more than cause a mild truncation of a dive and may require a little help from someone else who is present.

Clearly there are risks to diving with asthma and going on solo dives is probably not a good idea no matter how well-managed your asthma is. And diving with a buddy who is not comfortable helping you out if you have a problem at-depth is also a bad idea. But that's common sense and something each diver needs to evaluate for themselves, assuming their doctor says they are fit as a fiddle. Which I am. The problem is (and not living in the most litigious State in the country yourself might make it hard for you to understand) that when a physician signature is required to perform any activity, they are inevitably getting themselves involved in a legal liability situation which can have a dramatic impact on their ability to keep paying for a new Porsche every year or being able to maintain 20-30 pro club memberships at golf courses. And that is WAY more important to them than you're desire to go diving with your friends and family, regardless of your fitness level.

The problem is that it's up to an individual and their doctors to make the decision, and a doctor may not be willing (for perfectly valid and understandable reasons) to put their name on a legal liability form. Dive certification agencies are asking someone else to shoulder the blame for them, instead of giving divers the option of assuming all personal liability themselves as with any other sport.

With that in mind, it's no wonder that not only 50% of divers (according to DAN) but also a number of instructors basically advise people to falsify the forms. Just look at the replies on this thread - RJP you are the only one who is making a serious issue out of the fact that falsifying the medical form is a problem. That leads me to believe that the form is an issue that diving agencies need to come up with a better solution to remedy.

I'm still waiting for more evidence that taking a student who falsified info on a medical form puts you in the crosshairs legally. Many have asked, and while you've provided conjecture, you've provided no evidence. How many instructors are you aware of that have been sued into bankruptcy because they were legally attacked by a family of someone who died directly due to a complication that was neglected (as in falsified) on their medical form?

---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 03:57 PM ----------

I admit I'm not sure how it works in US.

It's basically a bloody free-for-all here. Ever seen how sharks get crazy when you chum the waters? Yeah, it's pretty much like that in court here.

 

[tursiops]

I'm still waiting for more evidence that taking a student who falsified info on a medical form puts you in the crosshairs legally. Many have asked, and while you've provided conjecture, you've provided no evidence. How many instructors are you aware of that have been sued into bankruptcy because they were legally attacked by a family of someone who died directly due to a complication that was neglected (as in falsified) on their medical form?

Seems to me you are trying to put RJP in an extreme position and then argue he should not be in that extreme position.

As he has already said, it isn't that taking a student who lied on their medical puts him in the crosshairs legally, it is that the student who lied (to cover up a medical issue) is more likely to have a problem on the dive, and no instructor wants to have to deal with that, either during the event or especially afterwards, if the worse should happen. Being an instructor involves risk management -- constantly -- and taking on a student who lied on the medical is more risky. Why bother? I've actually considered telling students I don't even want to see their medical form; all I want is the signed release from their doctor, no matter how healthy they think they are.

 

[redacted]

- the worst mistake an asthmatic diver could make is to forget to take their meds .

MEDS!!!! Oops, there is another note from the doctor.

---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 06:16 PM ----------

I've actually considered telling students I don't even want to see their medical form; all I want is the signed release from their doctor, no matter how healthy they think they are.

That has to be good for business (even if it is just a hobby).