Medical Approval Issues

[RJP]

If you falsify a medical form, then the responsibility is yours and yours alone.

Somehow I'm guessing that the wife/kids/estate of the poor schlub who lied on the medical form would see it differently. There's at least one case currently where the decedent never would have been in the water if not for a lie on their medical form. Nevertheless, their estate is suing everyone but the parking lot attendant.

---------- Post added August 15th, 2015 at 11:42 PM ----------

I suspect RJP was talking about "liability" in a sense of risk to people who might need to rescue a diver in trouble, rather than legal liability.

Actually I was speaking from both perspectives, as a crew member on a boat as well as a teaching professional. As someone who has been in a position to jump off a boat to save someone's life as well as someone who will accept you as a student based on the information you've provided me on your medical and other forms... you can bet I'll be pretty upset if one or both of us gets hurt in a situation caused or exacerbated by a medical condition you lied about on your form. You can also bet that some lawyer will convince your widow/widower to sue me if you die while taking a class with me... even if you did lie on the medical form. I'm gonna be pretty ticked about that too.

 

[JohnN]

Somehow I'm guessing that the wife/kids/estate of the poor schlub who lied on the medical form would see it differently. There's at least one case currently where the decedent never would have been in the water if not for a lie on their medical form.

If we're thinking of the same event, that was a minor where the parent had to countersign the document. Hardly equivalent.

And back to your point, would you prefer the wife/kids/estate sue the doctor who signed off on the medical form? What happen to personal responsibility (for non-minors) ?

 

[BRT]

Does anybody think that the medical forms would need to be filled out if there was a form that could really, truly, sign away the right to sue?

 

[Altamira]

Good luck with finding doctors that are willing to put their name on a piece of paper that would likely paint a lawsuit target on their back in the event something happened to you, even if it was not relevant to the incident. When the crap hits the fan, and lawyers get involved, they will likely try to pin the tail on as many donkeys as they can find in the hope that they can squeeze money out of someone.

 

[redacted]

Somehow I'm guessing that the wife/kids/estate of the poor schlub who lied on the medical form would see it differently. There's at least one case currently where the decedent never would have been in the water if not for a lie on their medical form. Nevertheless, their estate is suing everyone but the parking lot attendant.

---------- Post added August 15th, 2015 at 11:42 PM ----------



Actually I was speaking from both perspectives, as a crew member on a boat as well as a teaching professional. As someone who has been in a position to jump off a boat to save someone's life as well as someone who will accept you as a student based on the information you've provided me on your medical and other forms... you can bet I'll be pretty upset if one or both of us gets hurt in a situation caused or exacerbated by a medical condition you lied about on your form. You can also bet that some lawyer will convince your widow/widower to sue me if you die while taking a class with me... even if you did lie on the medical form. I'm gonna be pretty ticked about that too.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

There are downsides in being totally truthful and downsides in being less than truthful. The downside of being totally truthful is the mindlessness with which these forms are handled. Dive operators and professionals understandably have insufficient knowledge to make responsible and sensible assessments based on acknowledgements of adverse medical history. But, as long as the diver has a current note (new one every year) covering each item and signed by Dr. Suess everything is OK. Dive participants are asked to complete these forms not just for training, but also at other times depending on the location and the dive op involved. And, this request usually does not occur until the diver has traveled to his destination and presents himself to the dive op. Who is really going to travel to Coz and admit to having had sever dysentery 2 years ago when they were visiting Cozumel so they can be denied access to diving until they go downtown and get a note from the local Dr?

You deal with your risks, and I will deal with mine. What do you think about clients requiring medical statements from dive ops before they accept the dive op personnel participating in a dive? They would be entirely truthful, of course, wouldn't they?

When required to complete a med form, I check NO to hearing issues. If there is a DM briefing before a dive I move to his immediate left and explain that I am a bit hard of hearing.

 

[Iralub]

Actually I was speaking from both perspectives, as a crew member on a boat as well as a teaching professional. As someone who has been in a position to jump off a boat to save someone's life as well as someone who will accept you as a student based on the information you've provided me on your medical and other forms... you can bet I'll be pretty upset if one or both of us gets hurt in a situation caused or exacerbated by a medical condition you lied about on your form. You can also bet that some lawyer will convince your widow/widower to sue me if you die while taking a class with me... even if you did lie on the medical form. I'm gonna be pretty ticked about that too.

But it is much more difficult to successfully sue an instructor for an incident resulting from a medical condition where the victim lied, so the instructor could not know of the medical condition. The liability risk would be higher if the condition was disclosed, with a medical certificate provided, because the instructor retains the discretion to not accept the diver, so they can be blamed for that decision. As can the doctor.

I'm not sure about US, but in Australia, where I practice, I'd be advising against suing where the victim died due to a condition they failed to disclose. The only negligent person there is the victim.

 

[RJP]

But it is much more difficult to successfully sue an instructor for an incident resulting from a medical condition where the victim lied,

Let's be very, very clear here...

It is extremely easy to sue someone... potentially bankrupting them in the process.

The fact that the plaintiff may not actually prevail in court would be of limited solace.

---------- Post added August 16th, 2015 at 08:47 PM ----------

What happen to personal responsibility (for non-minors) ?

As the expression goes "Your right to extend your arm ends at the tip of someone else's nose."

---------- Post added August 16th, 2015 at 08:50 PM ----------

Does anybody think that the medical forms would need to be filled out if there was a form that could really, truly, sign away the right to sue?

That's such a meaningless hypothetical question it doesn't warrant discussion. The problem is that you cannot sign away someone else's right to sue... like your wife, your kids, your estate, etc.

---------- Post added August 16th, 2015 at 08:53 PM ----------

You deal with your risks, and I will deal with mine.

Unfortunately, scuba is an endeavor in which YOUR risks often become MINE. I simply cannot fathom how people don't understand that.

 

[BRT]

"

Originally Posted by BRT Does anybody think that the medical forms would need to be filled out if there was a form that could really, truly, sign away the right to sue?




That's such a meaningless hypothetical question it doesn't warrant discussion. The problem is that you cannot sign away someone else's right to sue... like your wife, your kids, your estate, etc."

You miss my point which is the reason the forms need to be filled out is for liability. The victim having lied on the medical form is as close as you can get to the wife and family not being able to sue.

 

[RJP]

You miss my point which is the reason the forms need to be filled out is for liability. The victim having lied on the medical form is as close as you can get to the wife and family not being able to [-]sue[/-] win.

Fixed it for you.

Hopefully the critical distinction between FILING a lawsuit and WINNING a lawsuit is not lost on you.

 

[uncfnp]

And these several posts just point out another issue I have with the medical questionnaire. Right or wrong I have the impression that it is written more for liability protection of the instructor/agency then for trying to ensure the safety or medical fitness of the diver.