Measuring success---or "How far in did you go"?

[Kevin Carlisle]

So you don't discuss dropping your knees here and there, getting too close to the bottom on that one down slope, having that reg pop out and dragging, the sloppy jump you put in etc, etc?

(speaking in general here, not anyone in particular)

Exactly.. I want to know anytime I do that. To me those little things can turn into a big problem if we dont try to correct them.

 

[rjack321]

A few of those BIG issues need to be discussed ASAP.. I dont want to do another dive that day or weekend with you if there are BIG issues. I am the type I dont want to hear you looked ok. I ask after every dive before we leave the water. If I dropped a fin at any point I want them to let me know. If I really screw up I want them to confront me as soon as they can and not sugar coat it.

I think we have different definitions. For us, "big" dives get planned months in advance. We aren't doing 2 a day or even 2 a weekend. More like 4 to 5 a year.

And we take no prisoners being critical of each other. Big issues are not, your fin dropped and you kicked up a tiny silt puff. Or you bobbled a stop by 2ft. Big issues are more like how fluidly were we able to shift roles, were you slowing cause of me, who was in charge of this, why do you think it took so long to do that. Sometimes we have to download profiles and we always have to retrospectively look at the whole dive to see where the big issues might be. For us, we can't do this immediately after surfacing, there's not enough time to digest.

So you don't discuss dropping your knees here and there, getting too close to the bottom on that one down slope, having that reg pop out and dragging, the sloppy jump you put in etc, etc?

(speaking in general here, not anyone in particular)

Yes, but at this point in our diving, "big issues" to us are very rarely at their root skills issues, although they may be exacerbated by a skill or skill-like deficiency. They are more likely to be judgement and/or leadership-follower issues.

 

[tgsmith]

So you don't discuss dropping your knees here and there, getting too close to the bottom on that one down slope, having that reg pop out and dragging, the sloppy jump you put in etc, etc?

(speaking in general here, not anyone in particular)

We do. We just don't use a structured format to do so. We talk about it over the course of the day, and if was something regarding the cave like negotiating a potential line trap, we would remind ourselves before our next dive.

 

[Dive-aholic]

One of the ways I set this up is to ask each team mate to critique their dive as soon as we surface. I also encourage them to critique the team's performance. People get used to the idea and realize it is not so bad.

I do this on a regular basis. I also bring a camera every now and then and have my wife video me because I don't believe my buddies are always as critical of me as I would be...and I've found this to be true.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

I would like to add to this thread that We are ALL Student divers, because we are always learning, and if anyone was not open to learning more We would ALL be in trouble...anyone that has Attitudes such as:

1. Antiauthority ("Don't tell me!") - Don't like anyone telling him/her what to do. Resentful of rules & regulations.
2. Impulsivity ("Do something - do it now!") - Need to do something, anything, quickly. Don't stop to think about better alternatives.

3. Invulnerability ("It won't happen to me.") - Accidents happen to other people, not to me. Therefore, I can take chances.

4. Macho ("I can do it.") - Always trying to prove themselves better than others. Take risks and try to impress others. Yes, women, too!

5. Resignation ("What's the use?") - I really can't make a difference. It's going to happen anyway, why bother? Leave actions to others.

can be considered Hazardous (even more so in this unforgiving enviroment)...the attitudes are very Hazardous, and most likely will end up resulting in highly unwelcome results..

I myself have been guilty of such attitudes, and i had analized it and mused the outcome of such, and relized that these attitudes should be on the growing list of accident analysis... I have decided (even though i had planned anyway to in the near future) to take the Intro course immediatley prior to furthering any exploration based on knowlage, and etc..

I am sure I will contnue to be flammed for anything cave related, but i finish my intro course in the last weekend of oct, and once i have gotton my card i will happily scan it and post it proudly as my continual in education of the overhead enviroment..........................

 

[bamamedic]

I myself have been guilty of such attitudes, and i had analized it and mused the outcome of such, and relized that these attitudes should be on the growing list of accident analysis... I have decided (even though i had planned anyway to in the near future) to take the Intro course immediatley prior to furthering any exploration based on knowlage, and etc..

I am sure I will contnue to be flammed for anything cave related, but i finish my intro course in the last weekend of oct, and once i have gotton my card i will happily scan it and post it proudly as my continual in education of the overhead enviroment..........................

I'm glad you're completing your "Intro" course....but I hope you know why you got "flamed" for your cave related posts. Ultimately, we all just want to continue to be able to cave dive, and every accident and fatality worries me, because I'm afraid that land owners are going to start restricting access. Divers that dive to levels way beyond their current training are taking a big risk, and they are risking not only their own lives and those of their buddies, but they are risking the future of cave diving itself.

In this thread, http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/303406-exploration-whats-furthest-youve-been.html you admit to making 930 foot penetrations into Devil's System as an Intro cave diver, and yet here, you state that you haven't finished Intro yet.

Please, please, please stay within the limits of your training and experience. If not for your own safety, do it for the safety of your buddy and for the future our sport.

I'm really glad that you're taking Intro, though. That's a step in the right direction!

 

[Jg1]

i finish my intro course in the last weekend of oct

Whos your instructor?

 

[Doc Harry]

I dove the Devil's Ear at Ginnie for the first time this summer. The walls of the cave were throughly scratched up, I assume from cylinders banging against the wall?

I've gone in on more than one cave dive and said beforehand, "My goal for this dive is not to touch ANYTHING!"

In Mexico, that is my priority #1, and it takes a lot mental concentration that drains me. The loud rumbling of exhaust bubbles working their way up through the cracks reminds me that no matter what, I am having an impact even if I don't touch anything.

 

[contender]

I would like to add to this thread that We are ALL Student divers, because we are always learning, and if anyone was not open to learning more We would ALL be in trouble...anyone that has Attitudes such as:

1. Antiauthority ("Don't tell me!") - Don't like anyone telling him/her what to do. Resentful of rules & regulations.
2. Impulsivity ("Do something - do it now!") - Need to do something, anything, quickly. Don't stop to think about better alternatives.

3. Invulnerability ("It won't happen to me.") - Accidents happen to other people, not to me. Therefore, I can take chances.

4. Macho ("I can do it.") - Always trying to prove themselves better than others. Take risks and try to impress others. Yes, women, too!

5. Resignation ("What's the use?") - I really can't make a difference. It's going to happen anyway, why bother? Leave actions to others.

can be considered Hazardous (even more so in this unforgiving enviroment)...the attitudes are very Hazardous, and most likely will end up resulting in highly unwelcome results..

I myself have been guilty of such attitudes, and i had analized it and mused the outcome of such, and relized that these attitudes should be on the growing list of accident analysis... I have decided (even though i had planned anyway to in the near future) to take the Intro course immediatley prior to furthering any exploration based on knowlage, and etc..

I am sure I will contnue to be flammed for anything cave related, but i finish my intro course in the last weekend of oct, and once i have gotton my card i will happily scan it and post it proudly as my continual in education of the overhead enviroment..........................

You were flamed because of your willingness to lie about your training. Please realize that you spit out one lie after another and had some people convinced it was the truth. No matter how good your post may seem, once you tell a lie, you lose all credibility. This is true here on the boards and anything else you do in life. Please let this be a lesson in reality. This is not a flame!

 

[Atomic_Diver]

I can understand as to why i was flammed...one thing i think in reguard to the scratches in the devils ear cave i think that the tank guards, and DPV's some divers use can't possibly be any good for the cave with all the "accidential" bumper car action that goes on with some divers not paying much attention to the cave....one thing i learned is that these caves will be here for many years to come, and theres no reason as to rushing into cave(rn) courses, and that it took many years to form the caves and it takes only one diver with less then stellar skills to ruin a beautiful enviroment in a seconds time, after it took thousands of years to create mother natures sculptured art......