Measuring success---or "How far in did you go"?

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

When a good friend says they went to dinner last night with their wife, do you ask them, "Did you drop food all over the place, slurp and pay a low tip?"

No - Because I do not care if they messed up the table or tipped their server properly. I do care if they are doing cave damage. I hardly see the comparison you have made between dinner last night & cave conservation/safety.

The confrontational part is perhaps misunderstood. I never overtly ask that question of a cave diver unless they are my cave student, then I already know the answer.

The question I posed is a question each cave diver should pose to themselves & team mates. Self-honesty is something we should all have & teach at the cave diver level.

My approach has never been confrontational. Look at my prior posts, ask former students.

Jim

 

[tgsmith]

No - Because I do not care if they messed up the table or tipped their server properly. I do care if they are doing cave damage. I hardly see the comparison you have made between dinner last night & cave conservation/safety.

Because either question would be rude to walk up to someone and ask.

Thus, they're going to turn themselves off to you and not listen anyways.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Because either question would be rude to walk up to someone and ask.

Thus, they're going to turn themselves off to you and not listen anyways.

I Agree with your comment tgsmith and am sorry the thread took such a sharp turn off topic due to my not being a better writer/communicator.

The point I was attempting to make was goal oriented cave diving causes cave damage IMHO. I teach students to set maximums, not goals for distance.

Taking care to use proper technique should be the goal of a cave dive and not simply seeing how far in you can go.

 

[The Chairman]

The confrontational part is perhaps misunderstood. I never overtly ask that question of a cave diver unless they are my cave student, then I already know the answer.

Makes FAR more sense now! Thanks for the clarification!

The question I posed is a question each cave diver should pose to themselves & team mates. Self-honesty is something we should all have & teach at the cave diver level.

On this we fully agree! However, few really possess self honesty. I absolutely love it when someone teaches me something new or points out a flaw that I have over looked.

My approach has never been confrontational. Look at my prior posts, ask former students.

This is true from what I have heard and read of Jim.

There is a problem with un-needed confrontation among the elite, but I don't think Jim is a part of it.

 

[Cave Diver]

When I am at some of the local fill stations here in North Florida I often hear one cave diver ask another "How far in did you make it? I do not recall a cave diver asking another "Did you mark the cave up with fins, tanks or your hands on your last cave dive?"

<snip>

My encouragement is to ask the right questions of fellow cave divers, stop worrying about who has gone further, jumped higher, ran faster. Cave diving should NOT be a competitive activity.

I agree with your sentiment. I think the problem comes in the execution. That is not a conversation I have with with other divers at the fill station. That's a conversation I have with my dive buddy post dive during our debriefing.

I have the good fortune to have a trusted buddy that 90% of my diving is done with. We do a lot of kidding around, but we are also critical of each others skills. If one of us feels like we had an "off" day, we ask how our trim and technique looked and we'll get an honest answer. Likewise, if one of us was out of sorts, there will be some good natured ribbing about it by the other. There is no "sugar coating" when we make assessments of each other.

I would hope that other dive teams are capable of having a frank discussion regarding their individual skills as well, good or bad.

 

[The Chairman]

I Agree with your comment tgsmith and am sorry the thread took such a sharp turn off topic due to my not being a better writer/communicator.

You're not so bad. I have had peeps tell me what a bad instructor I was because them made a logical leap that was simply not there. Discussions help us to clarify the points we were trying to make and perhaps change our perspective a bit.

The point I was attempting to make was goal oriented cave diving causes cave damage IMHO. I teach students to set maximums, not goals for distance.

This happens with all diving. Great situational awareness often gets thrown out of the window when we start trying to achieve personal bests. Sometimes peeps learn from their mistakes but sometimes we simply have to bury them. In addition to damage to the cave, overly focusing on any goal can make you lose track of NDLs and/or gas supply.

Taking care to use proper technique should be the goal of a cave dive and not simply seeing how far in you can go.

I agree. Proper technique also ensures that you will have a great time in there as well!

 

[rjack321]

I agree with your sentiment. I think the problem comes in the execution. That is not a conversation I have with with other divers at the fill station. That's a conversation I have with my dive buddy post dive during our debriefing.

I have the good fortune to have a trusted buddy that 90% of my diving is done with. We do a lot of kidding around, but we are also critical of each others skills. If one of us feels like we had an "off" day, we ask how our trim and technique looked and we'll get an honest answer. Likewise, if one of us was out of sorts, there will be some good natured ribbing about it by the other. There is no "sugar coating" when we make assessments of each other.

I would hope that other dive teams are capable of having a frank discussion regarding their individual skills as well, good or bad.

This is one reason why I am more and more selective about my buddies for both cave and OW diving even a few steps back from my limits.

Alot of divers just aren't receptive to really digging in and frankly examining what went well and what went poorly. If I am to continue to learn from "experience" its up to us and our debriefings to do it.

 

[contender]

The point I was attempting to make was goal oriented cave diving causes cave damage IMHO.
Taking care to use proper technique should be the goal of a cave dive and not simply seeing how far in you can go.

I agree, one can look at the more popular caves and see this instantly. This is part of the reason I never really have a plan to get to a certain point. I choose the route I want to take and go swimming. I love to swim slow and take in the sights, so I would never make it to a certain distance even if I planned to.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My encouragement is to ask the right questions of fellow cave divers, stop worrying about who has gone further, jumped higher, ran faster. Cave diving should NOT be a competitive activity.

I think some of y'all got too focused on the less important part of Jim's post ... and perhaps in the process missed the message. The sentence above is the message I take away from his original post. Then, I know that Jim is neither a confrontational nor a rude person ... he's genuinely interested in helping cave divers get their priorities straight.

There's nothing wrong with having a set goal in terms of where you want the dive to turn around ... but it shouldn't be the priority. The priority should be the integrity of the team and the preservation of the dive site. People who turn cave diving into a competitive activity will ultimately endanger themselves, their team mates, or other people's access to the caves ... because they're focused on the wrong goals.

Sure, if you can reach that turnaround point safely and without damaging the cave or silting it out for the team that's behind you, great. If not, maybe the priority should be to concentrate on better technique, and save that endpoint goal for a dive later on ... when you're better prepared for it.

I think Jim's example is a valid one ... because when you ask someone "how far did you make it" you are encouraging a false priority. Like it or not, ego plays a tremendous role in diving ... especially cave diving. We have some great examples of that right here in this forum.

Maybe it's because I'm new at it ... maybe it's because Jim's the guy teaching me how to be a cave diver ... but if someone asked me if I exited the cave without leaving marks I would not consider it an insult. I'd consider it a valid question that I should be making sure I think about on every dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

See, I view cave diving as a highly competitive activity . . . The person I'm in competition with is myself, and the goal is to do better each time I go in there

I'm with Richard, too. I want a debrief at the end of the dive that's frank and constructive. If there's something wrong with what I'm doing and somebody has some ideas on how to fix it, I want to hear them. I've really enjoyed the few times I've gotten to dive with much more experienced people, and gotten tips, sometimes on things I hadn't even noticed or thought about.

I like Jim's question, and I think we should all ask ourselves those things, and discuss them amongst the team after the dive.