Maui Trip Report: The Great, The Good and The Ugly

[KrisB]

Really? Invasive Species DB

Do you believe everything you read online?

The truth of the matter is that, despite the misleading title, the article says nothing about it being invasive -- only prolific. The specified biostatus in some areas has been called "invasive" -- but that's from individual observers who confuse these terms as well. As your referenced page includes this note: "Some scientists have found evidence which indicates that Acanthaster planci outbreaks have been an integral part of the ecosystem for at least 7000 years on some reefs (Walbran et al. 1989, in Keesing et al. 1992)", I'm inclined to say that it is just an occasionally prolific species.

Invasive implies it came from somewhere else -- i.e. expanded beyond its natural habitat, either intentionally (roi - Blue Spotted Grouper or taape - Blue Striped Snapper), unintentionally (Zebra Mussels to the Great Lakes), or in an unknown fashion (Lionfish on the East Coast).

Just because a species is prolific does not make it invasive.

That said, the fact that man meets most (all?) of the definition of invasive species, but is not included in that database does not encourage me towards believing it is a complete list.

You have yet, again, declined to respond to your initial allegations of the illegal activity. Please either rescind your accusation or defend it. That is a VERY not-nice thing to accuse someone of.

 

[smellzlikefish]

Time to nitpick. I'm afraid you have touched on a pet-peeve of mine.

"Invasive" is a term that is often over- and mis-used to the point that its use has been relegated by many of those-in-the-know to obscurity. KrisB's definition (came from somewhere else) is a case in point. Some organisms, the accidentally introduced rock wallabies in Kalihi valley, Oahu for example, are not native, but their population is small and their food non-native as well. Therefore, the wallabies on Oahu are introduced and fit your definition, but are hardly considered invasive.

At some point, all organisms would be "invasive" because we all evolved in one place and spread somewhere else. And thus the meaning of "invasive" becomes rather gray.

I only interject because I have watched professors correct students similarly. This conversation of "what is invasive" seemed like an appropriate place to whine.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am also fond of nitpicking, especially with regards to my pet-peeves, but hope that I usually make the nitpick posts contribute to the conversation.

I find KrisB's use of invasive in this thread way more appropriate than calling any reef system in Hawaii "spur and groove."

At some point, all organisms would be "invasive" because we all evolved in one place and spread somewhere else. And thus the meaning of "invasive" becomes rather gray.

If an organism still exists in the place it evolved, the fact that it spread somewhere else does not make it invasive, in the place it evolved.

AISI, the "meaning" of invasive only becomes "rather gray" when it is used the way you use it in that last post. You twisted KrisB's words to make what point exactly?

KrisB's definition (came from somewhere else) is a case in point.

Invasive implies it came from somewhere else -- i.e. expanded beyond its natural habitat, either intentionally (roi - Blue Spotted Grouper or taape - Blue Striped Snapper), unintentionally (Zebra Mussels to the Great Lakes), or in an unknown fashion (Lionfish on the East Coast).

 

[H2ODoc]

Interesting how this thread has departed from the original point at hand - how the DM handled the octopus.

I think "alien, invasive" would be a better way to describe the lionfish-type situation, wouldn't it?

Back on point....

Although their may not be a specific law that the DM violated, isn't it fair to say that as a dive professional, it's best not to disturb that octopus and all marine life? PADI certainly has a guideline against this. If he's fishing for octopi, however, catch the darn thing, kill it humanely, then go eat it. Just don't harass it. Seems logical to me.

If you really want to nitpick, you can read up on a cruelty-to-animals law

Hawaii Consolidated Cruelty Laws

 

[purcellj]

Do you believe everything you read online?

I have no reason to believe that the site is not reputable. I brought up the "invasive" tangent. I did it specifically to convey the idea that "a one-size does NOT fit all". Local customs will vary. They are typically based on protecting the ecosystem. I'm not aware of any of these customs being set for entertainment purposes.

There is a Hawaiian law that was put on the books in 2007 that someone could be prosecuted under. I'm fairly confident no one will be prosecuted under this law for this type of behavior. Yet that doesn't condone the behavior. But the law does exist. Sure I could give you the specific citation, but it will most likely be discounted like above.

KrisB: You seem to have taken this discussion as a personal affront. I'm pretty confident that we will never see eye-to-eye on this. Personally I'm ok with that. My original point remains ... harassing animals for entertainment value is just wrong.

 

[KrisB]

Interesting how this thread has departed from the original point at hand - how the DM handled the octopus.

I think "alien, invasive" would be a better way to describe the lionfish-type situation, wouldn't it?

Back on point....

Although their may not be a specific law that the DM violated, isn't it fair to say that as a dive professional, it's best not to disturb that octopus and all marine life? PADI certainly has a guideline against this. If he's fishing for octopi, however, catch the darn thing, kill it humanely, then go eat it. Just don't harass it. Seems logical to me.

If you really want to nitpick, you can read up on a cruelty-to-animals law

Hawaii Consolidated Cruelty Laws

Interesting read. Would be even more interesting if it applied.

The further argument here is that the DM was not acting illegally, only against the moral judgement of the OP (and some others). As the OP noted, he was the only one on the entire boat that seemed to object.

Just so we're clear: I'm not fond of how octopi are handled by many operators. That said, the advantage is definitely with the octopus: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hawaii-ohana/216697-bitten-octopus-chin.html

If it doesn't want to be played with, it won't be. It'll bite. It'll find a good hiding spot. The thing is smarter than a lot of divers.

I'm still waiting for the OP to tell me what was illegal?

 

[KrisB]

I have no reason to believe that the site is not reputable. I brought up the "invasive" tangent. I did it specifically to convey the idea that "a one-size does NOT fit all". Local customs will vary. They are typically based on protecting the ecosystem. I'm not aware of any of these customs being set for entertainment purposes.

There is a Hawaiian law that was put on the books in 2007 that someone could be prosecuted under. I'm fairly confident no one will be prosecuted under this law for this type of behavior. Yet that doesn't condone the behavior. But the law does exist. Sure I could give you the specific citation, but it will most likely be discounted like above.

KrisB: You seem to have taken this discussion as a personal affront. I'm pretty confident that we will never see eye-to-eye on this. Personally I'm ok with that. My original point remains ... harassing animals for entertainment value is just wrong.

Please cite the law. If you can show something legitimate, that's one thing. Here's a suggestion: if it's not published here: HI Legislature then it's not State Law in Hawaii.

 

[KrisB]

UPDATE: here's the direct link to the video ScubaDrew's Waterblog: Don't try this at home

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Interesting how this thread has departed from the original point at hand

This thread basically went where the OP took it.

isn't it fair to say that as a dive professional, it's best not to disturb that octopus and all marine life?

Personally, I think very few people on the planet "need" to eat Octopi. I would be happy if no Maui octopi was ever killed by a human. :shocked2:

I "train" every octopi I encounter to be wary of humans. If they are not good at hiding they will have motivation to hide better after I am done with my "training."

Black and white rules rarely work except in black and white worlds. I took one of my new PADI Jr. Open Water Divers on her first post certification dive with instructions to "hold the young green sea turtle firmly down on the bottom, no matter how hard it struggles."

After I removed all the fishing line that was cutting over half an inch into the shoulder flesh, we quit "torturing and harassing" that turtle and I have seen it regularly, swimming gracefully near divers for the 3 years since.

Some of us see a difference between interacting with wild life and harassing wild life.

​

 

[H2ODoc]

Interesting read. Would be even more interesting if it applied.

The further argument here is that the DM was not acting illegally, only against the moral judgement of the OP (and some others). As the OP noted, he was the only one on the entire boat that seemed to object.

Just so we're clear: I'm not fond of how octopi are handled by many operators. That said, the advantage is definitely with the octopus: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hawaii-ohana/216697-bitten-octopus-chin.html

If it doesn't want to be played with, it won't be. It'll bite. It'll find a good hiding spot. The thing is smarter than a lot of divers.

I'm still waiting for the OP to tell me what was illegal?

I think the argument that "it's OK to mess with animals because if they don't like it, they can defend themselves" is weak. The thing obviously didn't want to be harassed as evident that it tried to escape a number of times.

As an "IDC Staff Instructor" I would think you'd be on the side of following PADI guidelines. I'm just a relative newbie diver, however, so I'm just relating what I was taught in my OW class. Plus, I ain't the scuba police, nor will I lose sleep over somebody playing with one octopus. I'm no vegan tree hugger either. I think it's OK to eat meat, but I wouldn't go out and toss a chicken around with my buddies before I slaughter it and put it on the grill. But that's my $0.02, of course.