Master.........Really?

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When I took my course they only kind of diver they certified was Self-Reliant Divers.
I am very interested in your training, that produced that kind of diver. For instance, what was the course, what you were taught, through what agency, and when? Please understand, I am not looking for some basis to dispute your comment in any way. Rather, I am genuinely curious about content and structure of a previously taught course, that would have helped create such a diver. I presume that the title of the course was not 'Self-Reliant Diver'. But, what was the course? What was there in the course of your instruction that helped develop the skills, and create the confidence, that made you self-reliant?
 
The title of the course, to the best of my recollection, was Scuba Diver.

I guess the short answer is that the courses were more thorough--one course that at least gave you some insight into such activities as diving inside a shipwreck and cave diving. Back then, at least with the NAUI course that I took, we were taught to depend upon ourselves rather than our equipment. This is not to say that all dive agencies at the time (1969) or even earlier were equal. I dove with many "certified" divers that I felt were somewhat lacking in training. Since you read (and contributed to) the recent thread on BCDs you are aware that we generally dove without them. The question of the thread was "is it safe to dive without a BC" and the majority of the answers from the "golden era" was yes. Many of us still usually dive without a BC but there are situations where I think it would be a very good idea, such as inside a shipwreck. I attribute that conclusion, in part, to my training. We were taught to consider alternatives and seek out more information and techniques. At the time such things as cave diving were not perhaps as common as they are now and no doubt there have been many changes in safety procedures and equipment but we were given the general basics as they were at the time. Now, your PADI type would probably say that they have a specialty course for that but my point is that it was covered in my basic course and we knew to at least try to get the most up-so-date information before actually attempting such an undertaking. I have not taken a modern, abbreviated course so I'm not sure what they don't teach you, but considering you have to take about 10 separate courses to get a NAUI Master Diver certification these things apparently are no longer included. Getting back to the shipwreck scenario, one could argue that with proper planning and weighting neutral buoyancy could be achieved without a BC and I agree for the most part. But if a new piece of equipment becomes available and I have a good use for it then I'll use it. One thing is certain is that much of the equipment is a lot better than it used to be. Some I'm not so sure about. I've heard (but I'm not certain) that free ascents are no longer taught, at least with some agencies. Doing away with the Dive Tables has also been mentioned. Personally I have a difficult time placing my life in the hands of an electronic device that is being submerged under pressure in salt water. The two do not seem to be compatible. If I should ever find the need for a dive computer I plan on consulting the dive tables too.

Back when we were diving with the dinosaurs probably the vast majority of scuba divers were free divers first. That doesn't seem to be the case any more. We weren't just certified to scuba dive; we were scuba divers. Somebody posted a chart showing how the deaths of scuba divers has declined over the years. That's certainly good news but it would be difficult to determine the exact causes. I suspect that there are a lot more divers now who, instead of diving alone or with a buddy or two in some remote place, are now on supervised dives in well-established dive locations who are accompanied by many Dive Masters and possibly dozens of other divers. Plus, as I mentioned, there are possibly new procedures and better equipment (assuming you took the additional courses to learn these things). I simply have serious doubts about having someone I care about taking a MacDonald's dive course and then finding out the hard way that their Big Mac has no nutritional value. But hey, it was quick and tasted good!

You may be interested in this thread: Official vintage diving instruction?

I just wanted to add that I'm a newbie compared to a lot of folks on here. On Cozumel I had the privilege of diving with an elderly woman who had been diving about 18 years longer than I have.
 
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I would totally believe that many today have never free dived first, nor even done snorkeling on the surface. You're probably right about the statistics too. Hey, you usually can't really tell what statistics mean anyway.
 
I would like to know one thing only that I might learn on the "Underwater Model" specialty course. . :shocked:

can you stick your nipples out on demand
 
I would totally believe that many today have never free dived first, nor even done snorkeling on the surface. You're probably right about the statistics too. Hey, you usually can't really tell what statistics mean anyway.

I supprised you didn't add I swimming as well.


Bob
 
JamesBon92007:
Back when we were diving with the dinosaurs probably the vast majority of scuba divers were free divers first. That doesn't seem to be the case any more.
I would totally believe that many today have never free dived first, nor even done snorkeling on the surface.
Bob DBF:
I supprised you didn't add I swimming as well.
Some great points, and I would agree. And, one reasonable interpretation of those facts might be that the demographics, and interests, of individuals who choose to pursue scuba diving certification is, and has been, changing. And, the structure and content of training, across agencies, has changed and evolved to meet those changing needs, and MUST continue to do so. .

More people pursuing scuba certification now come to it without an extensive watermanship background. That is not 'good' or 'bad', it is just reality. I grew up in a coastal city, we went to the beach frequently, and learning to swim was considered de rigueur among the families we socialized with - in fact you were considered to be somehow 'deficient' if you did not know how to swim. Swimming was a primary summer recreational activity, in part because there was little else for kids to do in the summer (other than find new and unique ways to get into trouble). That is no longer the case, there are plenty of other recreational activities available, and LOTS of young people never learn to swim. When I was a university freshman, we had to pass a swimming test at the beginning of our first semester. That requirement disappeared long ago. And, young people can still get an undergraduate degree, without learning how to swim (so, yes, the requirements for a baccalaureate degree have been watered down).

Divers wonder (? lament) why more people are not taking up diving, why the average age of divers is increasing, etc. Some of the answers are reasonably straightforward. There are more (and more) competing activities, parents who didn't learn to swim as young people subsequently don't encourage their children to learn to swim, etc. (And, there is no Sea Hunt to stimulate interest in diving. Hmm, if we only could create a show about vampires that were scuba divers . . .) But, fortunately, at least some people, who may not have learned to swim, certainly not learned to free dive as a youth, become interested in learning to dive. And, they finally have the financial wherewithal to do that, and to perhaps even buy some equipment. And, many / most of them aren't interested in becoming scuba divers, they simply want to get certified to dive, as a social activity, as a episodic recreational endeavor. And, they are busy, and they have limited blocks of time available to pursue that certification. The good news - they may have multiple, short blocks of time, so they can divide their training into manageable 'chunks'. But, they have little interest in a long 'apprenticeship' to learn to become a scuba diver. They want quicker, cheaper, better (which may mean faster and easier). And, for the most part, they have no particular desire to dive 'alone or with a buddy or two in some remote place'. They want to go to Cozumel, or the Caymans, or whatever resort where diving is a focus but not the exclusive activity. That is the marketplace that training agencies, and instructors (and resorts, and charter operators, etc) work in. Now, we can say that these people should not be allowed to take the easy way out, that training agencies are diluting / cheapening the quality of training, etc., etc. But, it is more accurate to say that training agencies are adapting their business models to the reality of the marketplace. People complain about PADI's 'business model'. In fact, that model has been reasonably successful because PADI, AND other successful agencies, have been willing to adapt to the marketplace, instead of 'barking at the moon' and 'cursing the rain'. Instead of one longer, comprehensive training program, they offer more, shorter options for learning, which makes it easier for people to take that first step - a step they probably wouldn't ever take to begin with, if training took longer. As an Instructor, I believe I can have a reasonable influence on at least some people, to help them understand the difference between pursuing scuba certification and becoming a scuba diver. But, I have to have some point of contact with them first, in order for that to happen. So, I have no problem using shorter, less comprehensive OW courses to achieve that.

As a diver I really don't want to have to glue and sew my own wetsuits, I don't want to have to use chunks of neoprene to help me make 'one size fits all' fins fit me. And, the fact that there is a commercial marketplace of sufficient size to justify companies continuing to produce newer, better (albeit, in some cases, glitzier) gear allows me to have the opportunity to buy commercially manufactured wetsuits, and fins that fit me, and masks that don't leak, etc.

There are lots of things in scuba training that have gone by the wayside. We don't do the 'doff and don', the 'blow and go', etc., and we don't teach / practice buddy breathing, like we used to. I personally think those drills are challenging, and even 'fun'. But, there really is little relevance of those skills to scuba diving today, there are some risks associated with them, and the benefits simply do not come anywhere near justifying the risks. The absence of those skills does not reflect 'dilution' of training as much as a societal change in the concept of individual responsibility. It is a brave new world out there.
 
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When I took my PADI OW class years ago, the Instructor introduced the Dive Masters who would be assisting us. I thought, "Wow, Dive Masters! Probably here to supervise the Instructor." Lol. I was in awe.

When I got my Advanced OW Card, I was very much aware that I wasn't advanced in any normal sense of the word. I just wanted to get in a deep dive before I went to Belize and dived the Blue Hole.

Now that I'm a "Master Scuba Diver," it rarely comes up but when it does I tell people that my MSD rating plus $2 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I'm never going to be in the dive business, so I'm probably never going to become a Dive Master. Nobody, including me, cares about my cards. But I enjoyed and still enjoy taking the occasional specialty class, learning something new and having fun along the way.

And even though I now know Instructors outrank Dive Masters, I'm still in awe.

To me, the DM's are the backbone of the dive industry in many ways. They're doing the grunt work, herding cats on beach dives, pulling newbs out of the surf, cleaning rental gear, rebuilding regs, treating the pool, cleaning the head. On boats they're line handling, freeing jammed up anchors, getting the outboard motor running and working the galley. It's no wonder new divers look at us in awe :) :) :)
 
There are lots of things in scuba training that have gone by the wayside. We don't do the 'doff and don', the 'blow and go', etc., and we don't teach / practice buddy breathing, like we used to. I personally think those drills are challenging, and even 'fun'. But, there really is little relevance of those skills to scuba diving today, there are some risks associated with them, and the benefits simply do not come anywhere near justifying the risks. The absence of those skills does not reflect 'dilution' of training as much as a societal change in the concept of individual responsibility. It is a brave new world out there.

We might not teach doff and don but yet why do we require the skill for DM? Are they going to do this with only other DMs? It does teach a lot about what you are doing for yourself as well as the other person. My concern about the dilution of training is that skills that may not add to safety may better add to diver confidence and better performance.

Doff and Don drills allow a student to know where all of the connectors are without sight, train them to anticipate buoyancy changes etc. Did their tank come loose and need to be adjusted… Did they misconfigure their gear and want to reposition it? I know I have removed my gear several times in the past to readjust something that was just not right.

As for buddy breathing, the general scenario is that diver 1 is out of air, diver 2 donates reg (primary or secondary), and breathes off of the other. Real world is often, diver 1 is out of air, diver 2 donates a regulator that is low quality, poorly serviced, may have been dragged through the mud and sand and may not even work – Back to buddy breathing. Nice to have the training and confidence as a diver that buddy breathing is not going to be an issue. Not necessarily life threatening but still nice to have. I was recently checking out my gear before a dive (all divers do that right?) and found my bailout reg (call it octo here) had the exhaust mushroom folded in half and stuck that way. If I donated it or needed to use it, all the person would have gotten is a mouth full of water. Did your buddy properly check out their octo? Did you? Are you sure the reg you are donating is good (secondary donate) or are you sure the reg you are going to use is good (primary donate)?

I also lost my mask in a high current descent this weekend. I was able to catch it but decided to descend to the bottom before putting it on…. No need to fight holding onto the downline in the current. Right from my OW training, I was taught to swim with a snorkel or regulator without a mask and without holding my nose…. A nice skill to have and a dive continued without stress. Again not life threatening but makes for a better dive.

A lot of training was done to better prepare divers for harsher environments and poorer reliability of the gear in the past. Confidence and preparation was a part of it. It may not add to safety but can very well add to a better and stress free dive. I think these skills are lacking in today's training.
 
As for buddy breathing, the general scenario is that diver 1 is out of air, diver 2 donates reg (primary or secondary), and breathes off of the other. Real world is often, diver 1 is out of air, diver 2 donates a regulator that is low quality, poorly serviced, may have been dragged through the mud and sand and may not even work – Back to buddy breathing.
As I said above, no, not back to buddy breathing. In that scenario, I would do a CESA, which is a much safer alternative. I would definitely not trust my life to someone else's ability to hand me back a regulator when I needed it rather than keep it for his or her own safety. The research done decades ago by Dr. Glen Egstrom showed that for two divers to be confident that they could perform buddy breathing effective in an OOA situation, they would have had to perform 17 SUCCESSFUL buddy breathing scenarios in practice, and they would furthermore have to practice it regularly to maintain the skill. In the only recent case I know of in which buddy breathing was attempted in an OOA scenario, a woman in the Florida Keys became the donor a couple years ago while using rental equipment that did not include an alternate. Both she and the OOA diver drowned. I have not heard about the recent progress in the lawsuit against the people who rented her the regulator set.
 
So far the only mention of anything specific having been taken out of OW instruction is the traditional doff and don, but doffing and donning is indeed part of the current OM exercise. Students must take off their scuba unit and put it back on while under water.

Everything else that has been said is simply a generic description of how much better things were in a class taken by an individual decades ago.
 
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