Master.........Really?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Teaching Henry's law, etc.: First of all, was this part of the standard curriculum, or did your instructor add it? Next, here is some instructional theory for you--interference theory. Simply put, the time spent learning stuff you don't need to know interferes with your ability to learn and remember the things you do need to know. .

Are you saying that you do not think it is necessary for scuba divers to understand the effects of breathing nitrogen under pressure? I agree that the bottom line is that you need to follow the no-decompression/decompression rules (blindly, it would seem) but I most certainly want to understand why I need to obey these rules. And as for your "interference theory" you make it sound like humans have a one GB brain capacity so you carefully measure out one GB so you don't overload their poor brain. All of that other supposedly unnecessary teaching could very well spark someone's interest or imagination, leading to original thought. Every time we go scuba diving we are absorbing new things and these might be collectively called "experience." Now I think I understand why there are a few divers who are down there looking under every rock and others who simply drift along with their arms folded across their chest. Personally I don't believe that I have such limits to my ability to learn.
 
We don't require it. The traditional 'doff and don' is the removal of gear at the bottom of the pool, followed by an ascent to the surface, then a return to depth, and a re-donning of gear. We teach DMs 'equipment exchange'. And, it is taught as a problem-solving exercise, not as a realistic scuba skill, because it really is not. .

Obviously you've never accidentally knocked all of your gear off the boat just before the beginning of a dive :wink:
 
The General Gas Law
Boyles Law
Charles/Gay-lussacs Law
Henry's Law
Dalton's Law

These were in my course 1973. If you don't know what is occurring in your body breathing gases under pressure and the solubility of those gases in tissue then you wont have a basis to understand DCS or Nitrogen Narcosis, except for some rudimentary explanation that it makes you drunk (heard that one several times). I'm just touching the high spots here.
 
Are you saying that you do not think it is necessary for scuba divers to understand the effects of breathing nitrogen under pressure? .

Did you guys actually read his post? Or just skim it and pick some highlights to take out of context?

He did not say that he doesn't teach those things. He said it's not necessary to teach the NAMES of those things. Knowing that when pressure doubles, volume is cut in half is important. Knowing that that concept is called Boyle's Law is not important.
 
Are you saying that you do not think it is necessary for scuba divers to understand the effects of breathing nitrogen under pressure?
No, what I said was....

In the OW class I that this weekend, students learned how changing pressure impacts their diving, including compressing/expanding air spaces and impacting the rate at which nitrogen enters and leaves tissues.

And as for your "interference theory" you make it sound like humans have a one GB brain capacity so you carefully measure out one GB so you don't overload their poor brain.

My interference theory? Did you notice that I linked to a web site that explains it? Interference theory in learning is long established and undisputed. I learned it first in my freshman psychology class in college, which was nearly 50 years ago. Do a google search and you will find a host of web sites explaining it for you. You will find none arguing that it is not true. If you want to prove it false yourself, be my guest. You will become world famous.
 
http://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/attachments/effectiveness-online-response-meta-analysis.pdf

https://www.dol.gov/odep/documents/SoftSkillsMastery.pdf

Boulderjohn - here are 2 studies to contradict you. Also my FAA Certified Flight Instructor certificate and renewals indicates opposition to the comment "I can assure you that the very worst way to have people learn content is through instructor lecture". Blended is the best way to instruct. Since I renewed my CFI in October, the FAA still has not changed that. Nor do these studies. Online can be useful but you also need face time. I recently watched a student do his online for nitrox. I cannot say he really learned a thing. Pop onto the internet to get a quick answer with no understanding. Repeat the test until you pass, taking the results not knowledge from the first test to the second. Face time was a couple of questions. Not an important course so we have caught him back up, but still shows the issues.

"Mask clearing, for example, must be done so successfully that the instructor is convinced the student can repeat it without a problem a minimum of 7 times" - Really??? then why is it very common to see new divers panic at the first loss of the mask??

"With the changes in the way pool sessions are supposed to be done today, you can make the students come out looking one heck of a lot more like divers than you could only a few years ago in the same amount of time." - Wishful thinking here. Is the pool more magical? Are the students more motivated??

"My cousin's total course in the mid 1960s took place on the floor of the sporting goods shop where he bought his gear." - You keep going back to the 60's as your example. Many divers then were not even certified. Many instructors were really mentors at best. Let's talk the late 70's and early 80's where the curriculum was developed and the gear standardized and agencies solidified.

"This is a standards violation, and you should report it when you see it" - I see this a lot. Even had an advanced student do a octo (or alternate) surface from a deep wreck with his student this weekend... I will agree that I see fewer OOA ascents then the past but I suspect that is because of limiting OW to shallower depths and making more rules about return air then more aware divers.

"First of all, was this part of the standard curriculum, or did your instructor add it?" - Nope, it was part of the curriculum. You are teaching rote information if you do not go into the laws more. This is the part I am talking about. We were expected to know a great deal more about our environment and the affects it has on us. We were expected to calculate PPO2, PV=nRT, etc. We were tested on it. As divers, we understood not just rote information about the new environment.

Doing something is a combination of 2 things. Skills and Knowledge. The problem is that neither is being well taught. I can read online all I want about football. I can know how the game is played better then any player or ref. That does not make me a good player. For that, I need to develop skill which come from experience. Short courses do not adequately develop skills from 0 time to diver in the handful of classroom sessions. Fundamental issues are present as a result and obvious when diving on boats with new divers. The basics must be completely developed so the student can work on expanding their experience.

Funny thing about the course length - I have had discussions with an Instructor that taught in the 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's. They gave me a simple return answer for the efficiency of the courses. He stated that when the 2 week course came out, he had to move from the 6 week course or he would be put out of business. Same for the weekend courses. I know for a fact that many of the agencies talk about the issues with instruction and I have brought it up at a number of seminars with them.

A good Arab proverb "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him. He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him. He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him. He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him."

What to take from that. Information is what a student needs. Big pressure change - Not good information. Henry's Law - Affects NDL because.... Boyle's Law - Affects how much gas you will use at depth because .... Dalton's law - Affects PPO2 and as a result Narcosis because... - Instead, lets teach rote information and expect higher levels of learning when???

Boulderjohn - as an instructor you have professional skin in the game. You cannot tell your students that today's training is not the best. It is called towing the line. whether you have seen the changes or not, I do not know but you cannot honestly tell me that shortening training is better. I have seen numerous classes struggle to finish as the students are not ready!! I do not have professional skin in the game. Rather, I was responsible for many divers going to be certified in the 80's, 90's and 10's. I got to see first hand the differences of each training type on my dive buddies.


Now back to the question at hand.... A Master Diver with 5 specialties and 50 dives is not a master diver of anything (necessarily). It is a marketing tool to get divers to get specialties and think they are skilled divers. If the program, instead of focusing on specialties, focused on types of diving and quantity then it may be different.

Some hundred dives - Check, Rescue Diver - Check, Lowvis - Check, Deep - Check, Wreck - Check, Drift - Check, Ocean - Check, Lake(closed) - Check, Anchor - Check, Hot Drop - Check, Dive Lead - Check, Cold - Check, Warm - Check, Required specialties including Buoyancy, Wreck, Deep, Night, ?? - Check.... Pencil pushing aside, this would indicate a background of a skilled diver and probably a true Master Diver who has a wide range of skills and can be depended upon.

50 dives in training maybe in the same lake- check, Rescue (All training from OW with no non training dives) - check, Zombie Apocalypse Survival Dive Course (specialty) and 4 other who knows specialties - Check --> Master Diver. I would not trust this diver to dive in a wet paper bag. Their skill may be superior but it also may be severely lacking. Nothing in the certification can indicate which it is.
 
Teaching Henry's law, etc.: First of all, was this part of the standard curriculum, or did your instructor add it? Next, here is some instructional theory for you--interference theory.

You may want to go back to your class. The laws of memory retention are affected by DIR.
Disuse - Something not used will be forgotten.
Interference - Interfering with a memory. This is not too much information but rather interference. I have a combo 123 and a combo 321. They may interfere with my memory and I will forget the information.
Repression - I repress a memory.
 
You may want to go back to your class. The laws of memory retention are affected by DIR.
Disuse - Something not used will be forgotten.
Interference - Interfering with a memory. This is not too much information but rather interference. I have a combo 123 and a combo 321. They may interfere with my memory and I will forget the information.
Repression - I repress a memory.
There are many factors involved in effective learning--I just mentioned one of them. There are more than a few entire books written on the topic, and quite a few of them are in my bookcase.
 
Obviously you've never accidentally knocked all of your gear off the boat just before the beginning of a dive :wink:

You can't be serious. Obviously, you've never been on a dive charter. There is no way they're going to let you dive down to get your equipment. You know, liability and all that. Unless you are an experienced free diver I doubt you can get down to typical shallow depths (30 feet) and get your equipment on. I can't. Nope, let the DM go down and get it. That's part of the cost as far as I'm concerned.
 
Last edited:
There are many factors involved in effective learning--I just mentioned one of them. There are more than a few entire books written on the topic, and quite a few of them are in my bookcase.

There are a lot. As a CFI, the Government expected me to know and understand them, albeit it was a while ago.

Rule of Primacy - First learned takes precedent - Teach right from the beginning.
Readiness - Satisfy basic needs first (Food, Shelter, Safety)
Motivation - Those interested in learning will learn best - No boyfriend/girlfriend, child etc learning only because they are being asked to.
Exercise - Those repeated (used) will be remembered best - Experience and skill imparted from extensive training and repetition.
Recency - Latest learned is best remembered.

Trust is important - If the student believes the instructor is hiding/lying they will not learn.

Levels of learning - Rote, Application, Understanding, Correlation. - Lets instruct above the Rote level. Rote will be achieved by not understanding where and what the laws affecting diving are, e.g. Boyles, Dalton's, Henry's etc. Application and beyond will be achieved once they are learned.

Yea I can also go on.

There are changes that are necessary to the curriculum. We do not need to teach J-valve operation. Personally, we do not need to teach tables. These have gone by the wayside. But many of the others have been cut or changed but are still pertinent to diving. Because of a potential lawsuit does not make it less pertinent but rather not taught because of other reasons ($$). Others I suspect are cut because of time requirements when shortening the courses. It if I am dependent on my buddy's gear as an example, the only regulator I KNOW is working is the one they are using. If I am in an overhead (Yes still open water) or deep environment, buddy breathing is superior to a CESA if their second does not work. Try getting out of the back ballroom in Ginnie after exhaling and then finding the octo (alt) reg is not working.....
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom