Master Diver Certification

[AfterDark]

Dear fellow divers,

I feel great after finding that so many people express concerns for my and my daughter's safety. Some of you praised us for the achievement and others used rather strong language to ensure our well-being. Acting on the information they had.

I appreciate all and every advice I can get and this thread is no exception.

I believe that I owe you a little more data about the dive I mentioned. While the main point of the thread was my achievement as a father and my daughter's achievements as a scuba diver, the dive we executed attracted more attention than I could ever wish for.

1. It was a training exercise to get used to stage bottles and practice navigation skills.

While recreational divers typically dive without any redundancy assuming they have an infinite supply of gas within reach, they know it's not always that easy to reach that gas and live and ignore it. I always believed this is dangerous and moved to doubles after my first 20-30 dives. I feel nervous when my daughter uses a single tank setup and insist on some redundancy. She's too young to use doubles but this it only a matter of time.

2. It was a technical dive (TD) accordingly with major agencies definitions.

Namely, as defined in Technical diving - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, NAUI defines TD as "use of nitrox above 36%, multiple mix gas diving," PADI says "use of multiple gas mixtures in a single dive" and NOAA states that "Technical diving often involves the use of special gas mixtures (other than compressed air) for breathing. The type of gas mixture used is determined either by the maximum depth planned for the dive, or by the length of time that the diver intends to spend underwater."

This means that I can take EANx32 on my back and air in a "pony bottle" and if I use both at 20' it will be a technical dive.
Feel free to use your own definition of technical diving but don't refer to your training in such case.
I used NOAA definition to plan this dive.

3. It was a multilevel shore dive within PADI limits (and you will get to see the data)

If you planning to come to Point Lobos and look for Andrea Doria in Whaler's Cove, let me disappoint you: it's not there. The point is, when you hear "technical diving" and "14 years old" you should not jump into imagining a tiny 14-years old descending to the darkness of the Pacific Ocean on a single AL63.

4. About that 14 years old

My daughter started diving when she was 12 and turning 15 in a couple of months. Ask the Peace dive boat capitan who is the first (if not the only) 14 years old to dive SM1 in a strong current, twice, all within PADI restrictions and he will pull a manifest with my daughter's name. Ask him about Gosford and you will hear the same answer. Ask Ken of CIDA (Northern Wrecks | Channel Islands Dive Adventures) who was the only 14 years old on the board of Peace and who earned respect of very experienced adult divers present on that charter trip and you will hear the same name.

And now ask yourself, can your kid do that? Parents only. Kids please don't bother.

5. Dives are different

We all know that 50 dives on Hawaii resort are not the same as 50 dives in Monterey. Our dives in Monterey are different. Our typical dive is long and many divers make two before we come from our first one. Add strong (4-6') swells and 48F water and you'll begin getting the picture. This is what we call home.

6. Dive profile, as promised.

I know flaws can be found anywhere. Ask me. As some people noticed, you don't know what you don't know.

View attachment 145176

7. Final notes

I see that some people jumped into conclusion based on their own definition of our dive. While I respect everyone's opinion, I cannot accept their advice based on their imagination.

Thank you!

Cetus

You don't owe any of these "posters" any explanation. You did what you felt comfortable doing and apparently did it well as evidenced by the fact that you're here to post. These recently certified divers, by recently I mean the last 10-15 years think that the obituary limits that the agencies try to put on divers are the end all and be all. You keep doing what you're doing as long as you're comfortable with it and someone is training or couching you. You are much too polite. Again good job keep diving keep learning!

 

[Cetus]

Thanks for providing more information on your dive and continuing the discussion on this!!

Sure thing!

a 14 years old who should go no deeper than 70 ft according to Padi standards for Junior divers (age 12-14) AFAIK. It can be discussed if this is a good idea or not but in the end it's your choice anyways. But these are the facts, or am I wrong?
Save diving!

PADI states that "If they complete the Deep Adventure Dive it must not exceed 21 metres/ 70 feet" in a section for Junior Advanced Open Water Divers, age 12-14. My daughter is, in addition to that a Rescue Diver and Master Scuba Diver. There's no limitation for Junior Master Scuba Diver, at least on this PADI page: Kids Junior Scuba Diving Open Water, Rescue and Master Diver Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization

Have fun diving!

---------- Post added January 18th, 2013 at 08:07 PM ----------

You don't owe any of these "posters" any explanation. You did what you felt comfortable doing and apparently did it well as evidenced by the fact that you're here to post. These recently certified divers, by recently I mean the last 10-15 years think that the obituary limits that the agencies try to put on divers are the end all and be all. You keep doing what you're doing as long as you're comfortable with it and someone is training or couching you. You are much too polite. Again good job keep diving keep learning!

Thank you, AfterDark. I feel that people might exercise better judgement given the opportunity and data. I will make more friends by giving people an opportunity to understand me and my meanings.

Dive and have fun!

 

[tkdgodess]

Standards in my instructor manual say 60 feet for jr owd, and 70 feet for jr aow and con ed. age for deep specialty is 15 (wreck, sm and semi-closed rb) those are the standards i stay within. Also master scuba diver just means you have aow, 5 con ed specialties, rescue, efr. You dont even need deep or ean to be msd, but you need them for tec 40 which is the entry level tec course for padi.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Standards are for everyone else not you. Do what you want.

 

[AfterDark]

Standards in my instructor manual say 60 feet for jr owd, and 70 feet for jr aow and con ed. age for deep specialty is 15 (wreck, sm and semi-closed rb) those are the standards i stay within. Also master scuba diver just means you have aow, 5 con ed specialties, rescue, efr. You dont even need deep or ean to be msd, but you need them for tec 40 which is the entry level tec course for padi.

Sounds silly to me, 60' for one 70' for the other; 10' big deal! Lives hang in the balance of a 10' depth difference!

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Sounds silly to me, 60' for one 70' for the other; 10' big deal! Lives hang in the balance of a 10' depth difference!

It's called progression. The standards are there to ensure a safe progression while building the skills necessary to plan and execute more complex dives.

Progression is used throughout dive training. First we introduce the students to the gear and the pool we don't first drop them 60' into the ocean.

It's amazing how the concept is lost on so many until they end up outside of their comfort zone and we read about them in the Accidents and Incidents forums.

Every year we read about divers executing dives for which they have had no training but felt they were ready for, this year will be no different.

 

[AfterDark]

It's called progression. The standards are there to ensure a safe progression while building the skills necessary to plan and execute more complex dives.

Progression is used throughout dive training. First we introduce the students to the gear and the pool we don't first drop them 60' into the ocean.

It's amazing how the concept is lost on so many until they end up outside of their comfort zone and we read about them in the Accidents and Incidents forums.

Every year we read about divers executing dives for which they have had no training but felt they were ready for, this year will be no different.

First we introduce the students to the gear and the pool we don't first drop them 60' into the ocean. So are you suggesting there are training faclities that do 1st drop them in 60' of water?

Sounds to me like the OP is doing just what your talking about progressing.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

"First we introduce the students to the gear and the pool we don't first drop them 60' into the ocean."

So are you suggesting there are training faclities that do 1st drop them in 60' of water?

I suggested no such thing nor would the average person comprehend the statement as such.

Sounds to me like the OP is doing just what your talking about progressing.

An element of the equation that clearly escapes you is the term student. The OP is progressing as his and his daughter's own teacher for which he is clearly ill equipped. No longer is he in the role of student.

 

[scubadada]

After official navigation class dives at the end of December, rough ocean and all we went to our first technical dive on January 1st. Two gases, 78 minutes and 125' deepest in Point Lobos. I navigated from GPW to HIW to SM to BR (see below) and back in a good swell and we both felt great, thanks to 28% back/40% deco EANx and my planning. Well this goes beyond MSD but you get the point.

I've had a fairly long private conversation with Cetus. As a result, I do not believe the dive they did was a technical dive by the definitions most of us use for technical diving -- in other words, they were never under a mandatory decompression obligation. This is quite possible at Lobos with a heavily multi-leveled dive, even with the posted maximum depth.

I'm beginning to believe that a lot of this hooferaw is just loose or inappropriate use of terminology.

I made the assumption, like many appear to have done, that this was a technical dive with staged decompression using an inefficient deco gas. I drew my conclusion solely because Cetus called the 40%, deco gas

If Cetus and his daughter, tokidoki12, never had a decompression obligation, I would call this a recreational dive. Both nitrox mixes were within the primary training certification range. I imagine recreational divers are allowed to switch gases, as pointed out, many of us carry ponies and at least practice switching frequently. They may even have switched above 80 ft to extend their NDL, that seems OK to me.

On the other hand, like many of you, I have many infractions, mostly minor, in my recreational diving. I've been deeper than 130 feet a dozen times, not infrequently, I go into deco. Sometimes this clears during a multi-level dive or upon ascent, but I've had short deco obligations of 3-5 minutes on many occasions. I fully realize there is risk in my behavior but I do not consider it very risky. I always have plenty of gas, I dive with a pony, my primary AI computer is backed up with a secondary computer and SPG. You can call my diving what you will, but it is not always "recreational" I would imagine that many of you have similar diving behavior.

Good diving, Craig

 

[Cetus]

I made the assumption, like many appear to have done, that this was a technical dive with staged decompression using an inefficient deco gas. I drew my conclusion solely because Cetus called the 40%, deco gas

If Cetus and his daughter, tokidoki12, never had a decompression obligation, I would call this a recreational dive. Both nitrox mixes were within the primary training certification range. I imagine recreational divers are allowed to switch gases, as pointed out, many of us carry ponies and at least practice switching frequently. They may even have switched above 80 ft to extend their NDL, that seems OK to me.

We switched to 40% at 80' on the way back as the purpose of 40% was to reduce MB level. Had we had cheaper 32% we'd crossed reserve margins completing our stops. That wiggle at 80' on minute 46 shows when we switched.

More data, refer to the dive profile I've posted before:

On minute 32 at 101' my Galileo Luna switched from no stop to 1 minute stop at 10'
On minute 42 at 105' level stop at 10' reached maximum of 23 minutes and then switched to 1.5 minutes at 20'
On minute 69 at 45' the level stop reached maximum of 7.5 minutes at 20'
On minute 72 at 25' Luna requested a level+deco stop for 5.5 minutes at 20'

At that point we were at the 30' stop following v-planner plan. We typically plan 30' stop as last stop because stopping at recommended 15' trains one to vomit into second stage in our waters.

On the other hand, like many of you, I have many infractions, mostly minor, in my recreational diving. I've been deeper than 130 feet a dozen times, not infrequently, I go into deco. Sometimes this clears during a multi-level dive or upon ascent, but I've had short deco obligations of 3-5 minutes on many occasions. I fully realize there is risk in my behavior but I do not consider it very risky. I always have plenty of gas, I dive with a pony, my primary AI computer is backed up with a secondary computer and SPG. You can call my diving what you will, but it is not always "recreational" I would imagine that many of you have similar diving behavior.

Good diving, Craig

Strictly speaking there's no such thing as 'no decompression' diving and such 'infractions' are deviations from safety rules. Safety rules designed for recreational divers, including people with hearth and vascular deceases who are advised against diving but love it too much to give it up.

Good diving 2U2 Craig!