This could have been a causative factor in a double fatality in Madison Blue. Two guys encountered a silt out in the half hitch,thinking more likely that it shifted again. After the accident it was found a line arrow was pointing the wrong direction. When their dive computers were downloaded it was discovered with depths that they turned around and swam back into the cave, and then came back, with the wrongly placed line arrow matching the depths.
Marking Jumps and T's
- Thread starter Capt Jim Wyatt
- Start date
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This could have been a causative factor in a double fatality in Madison Blue. Two guys encountered a silt out in the half hitch,thinking more likely that it shifted again. After the accident it was found a line arrow was pointing the wrong direction. When their dive computers were downloaded it was discovered with depths that they turned around and swam back into the cave, and then came back, with the wrongly placed line arrow matching the depths.
kafkaland
Contributor
Wow, eleven pages....and it started so well. IMHO y'all are looking at the forest. not the trees. I have a couple of thousand cave dives under my belt and I haven't lost a buddy yet, (unless we're in the dark and having fun... 
), we should teach people how to cave dive well and imagine, you could do a lost diver drill which is one of the most basic skills that you learn and should be tested on in every level of cave diving! I tell my students about the cookie thing but it's an option..eg if it makes you comfy feel free... and then I see fifteen cookies on the Hill 400 jump which I think is ridiculous. I mean seriously, I have yet to understand how you can "lose" or "leave" a buddy in the cave. IMHO this is putting a band aid on a problem that shouldn't even come about in the first place...
Safe diving,
Rich
), we should teach people how to cave dive well and imagine, you could do a lost diver drill which is one of the most basic skills that you learn and should be tested on in every level of cave diving! I tell my students about the cookie thing but it's an option..eg if it makes you comfy feel free... and then I see fifteen cookies on the Hill 400 jump which I think is ridiculous. I mean seriously, I have yet to understand how you can "lose" or "leave" a buddy in the cave. IMHO this is putting a band aid on a problem that shouldn't even come about in the first place...Safe diving,
Rich
victorzamora
Contributor
I agree with your premise, Rich, but the way I see it is that practically all of cave training is in case something goes unpredictably wrong. This may be my naivete as a fairly new cave diver, but it seems like all of these procedures are in place in case something has already gone wrong. Of course, the best option is for things to not go wrong....but determining a good procedure in case it does seems very prudent.
Having said that, 15 cookies on a well-traveled T does seem a little crazy...even to the point of it defeating the main purpose of having them in the first place.
Having said that, 15 cookies on a well-traveled T does seem a little crazy...even to the point of it defeating the main purpose of having them in the first place.
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Capt Jim Wyatt
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Rich you are correct the problem should not come up. However, a few weeks ago it happened resulting in a fatality that maybe could have been avoided if the buddy knew in which direction the buddy may have been thereby knowing in which direction to search. If the two divers had left individual cookies on the gold line at the main land jump it would have been a cue to the diver that exited the cave in the hopes her buddy was on the surface.
One of our responsibilities as cave instructors is to teach students the defense against and solutions for worst case scenarios. I also cannot understand why/how we can get lost off of the line but yet we all teach our cave students how to relocate a lost line, same with a separated buddy and OOA gas sharing exits in zero visibility.
Personally in all my years cave diving I have never seen 15 cookies at the hill 400 jump. I do not think I have ever seen more than three or four.
I also agree that the procedure for marking jumps by divers needs to be standardized, much like lost buddy search techniques are fairly standard as well as OOA gas sharing exits in zero visibility.
I'd like to poll the participants here as to whether or not you agree with the procedure explained in the thread starter. I cannot see how to start such a poll, maybe someone can help?
FWIW I think if I put my procedure to a vote to the CDS TC today I am not sure it would be approved by the majority of those members for the same reasons Rich has given in terms of too many markers on the line as well as slowing the team down.
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They do give it thought and I know their training committees discuss solutions because I have had the privilege to sit in on a couple training committee meetings in the past. Solutions are so difficult because there are only a couple agencies that provide the line and arrows for the caves we visit, but there is large number of agencies that benefit from these lines for their training that teach a different philosophy, so standardization is very difficult. Plus we have different countries that have their own protocols too. Overall things are safe, otherwise we would hear about a lost diver search frequently, and we don't. Incidents are so rare thankfully,but it always is good to assure your own safety with noting things carefully when diving, and marking things that are anomalous when encountered.
---------- Post added June 1st, 2015 at 06:12 AM ----------
I will be the first to say I do something that doesn't meet present convention,but I also know what I do no way impairs anybody else's navigation. That being said I am will to adapt to a standardized procedure.
---------- Post added June 1st, 2015 at 06:42 AM ----------
To play devil's advocate, 15 cookies is ridiculous,but if it stays there it can become a navigation aide, almost like the bats,or the coat hanger/weights etc. Think about it if I am in a zero viz /lights out situation and I have to feel my way out, line arrows with distances are useless,but feeling a large accumulation of cookies would give me a reference. For those that have had to really feel their way out of a cave, I think the longest I ever had to do was 2000ft, directional line arrows were comforting, but something unusual, in that case a section of cave that had 3 line arrows within a 50ft segment, was great because it gave me reference to my location. Now where I am not a proponent of making artificial aides,glory markers,or huge accumulation of cookies,but if they are there awhile,leaving them can have some import.
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I think both personal cookies within a team and a single team cookie should be presented, with the complete reasoning for/against both options explained and then point out this is one of those procedures that you need to discuss with a new dive buddy before diving. My personal recommendation is to use personal cookies within a team, and I would also make that case.
I also think a discussion about the fact that some people teach putting in arrows for jumps that may not point towards your exit should be presented so the students are aware of what other groups may be doing and the impact it can have on them. But of course explain to that this is a big no-no, and use the opportunity to reinforce that arrows should only point to the nearest exit.
(Standard disclaimer -- I am a twice a year line following cave tourist so please forgive what may be ignorance in the following)
I've been on a number of line where the arrows change direction. I do not know, but I have been told, that some of those arrow changes point to "the nearest exit" but that they might not be available to me due to restrictions (side-mount/no-mount). Is it not true that not all "nearest exits" are available ones?
victorzamora
Contributor
Very well could be. Orange Grove had arrows pointing to an unavailable exit for a whole when the rock at challenge fell. I'm sure in Mx some exits could be beyond a doubles-unfriendly restriction.
Crap like that is why it's so important to know where YOUR exit is.....but without contradicting permanent arrows.
For caves in Mexico, if you are relying on the permanent line arrows for navigation, then you have already made too many mistakes. What do you want the arrow to point to: (1) the nearest exit 1,000' away through a small silty tannic siphon that opens to a cenote that is impossible/ difficult to exit, (2) the exit 2,000' away in large rock floor passageway where you can easily swim three abreast. Are you diving on DPVs or swimming in sidemount, etc. Add to this that often sections of cave were explored by different teams from different cenotes and were marked accordingly. Once you are beyond the easy tourist distances, it is rare for anyone to go back and reconcile the arrows to the "fully explored" system. As an added bonus, there are people that still go in and screw around with permanent markers. You solve these issues on the surface by reviewing the map and having a good plan with contingencies based on the exits you know. A dive that ever results in trusting the direction of permanent or temporary arrows you didn't install (or confirm with your own non directional marker) was a failure before the team splashed.
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