Looking to Buy a Rebreather

[tbone1004]

Can you elaborate more on this for the kiss ones please?

When we talk about pricing on these, we are talking about a 4-pin Petrel primary and hud. This is to get it "close" to the way the eCCR's come standard from the factory. Yes I know the 4-pin is more expensive, no I do not think that hardwired controllers or fischer cables are an intelligent decision. The DiveCAN's are all using SubConns so we have to use it to compare properly, but more important to that the hardwires are prone to corrosion up the cable which means sending the entire head back for a cable replacement which is egregiously expensive and time consuming, and Fischer cables are not actually fit for purpose in a rebreather environment and need to go the way of the dodo ASAP. Unfortunately @Shearwater is not supporting conversion of older units since they do not allow dealers to purchase the 4-pin variants of the Petrel/NERD so those of us with Fischer cables are stuck with them unless we go to another brand. So much for supporting rebreather divers, but whatever that's their business choice. I am glad they came out with the 4-pin since Revo has been using them for many years, but it is a shame they only sell them to the manufacturers as many of us would gladly get the new units to convert ours but if we don't have a KISS or a Revo we can't do anything about it. Rant over, sore subject if you couldn't tell, but point is the 4-pin is infinitely better than the Fischer or Hardwired, and you also need to add a HUD as most agencies require a secondary device for training and all the other rebreathers come with them as standard.

Also note that KISS pricing is very misleading because you actually need to fully configure the rebreather which means adding tanks, first stages as appropriate, oxygen sensors *which are an option and not standard*, and bp/wing *backplate comes with some of them since they are custom, but no wings*.

Classic-No real objection to the Classic other than it is egregiously expensive for what it is and offers no benefits vs other CCR's in its class and is actually more expensive than several of them. The can is not sturdy enough to turn into a rack mounted unit by bolting things directly to it so you need a frame and that's annoying. I really don't like open water diving without a rack mounted unit, it's so much nicer.

Spirit-again, egregiously expensive, strange form factor, exhale straight into the scrubber, no flood recovery, can't really reach the OPV or ADV behind your head, it's "fine" but at $9k to get it configured comparable to the eCCR's out there it's ridiculous. If you want something with a strange form factor the O2ptima is $10k even and is a full eCCR and can actually be used without strapping any bottles to you if you are diving fairly shallow and is a much more robust unit.

Sidewinder-getting into the rig on a picnic table is a PITA heaven forbid a boat that is bucking up and down, and that still ignores all the normal hassles of diving sidemount in open water. Sure it is being done, but it is being done by guys that are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, not because it is actually fit for purpose.

Sidekick-actually is probably the least offensive of the lot for open water diving because similar to the Choptima concept it allows you to clip it onto any rig and you have a CCR. Problem with the sidekick is the breathing is really bad in any sort of vertical orientation so if you have to go vertical for some reason for any length of time you have to come off the loop. Also these without a sphere on the bottom are not fun to dive and the spheres are both very hard to find and extremely expensive *also not technically legal to transport or fill since they don't have DOT stamps and can't be hydro'd but that's a different discussion*


Basically, none of them are cheap enough to warrant looking at as a way to save money compared to something like an O2ptima *and I don't even dive an O2ptima, I'm just using it as an example because DGX has them on their website for easy pricing comparisons, but the Liberty and others are in the same price bracket*, and none of them have any redeeming qualities for open water diving that make them better fit for purpose than an eCCR. Sure the Sidewinder is "sexy" because all the cave divers are using it and talking about it and Woody from Dive Talk has given the Spirit some renewed life from the Youtube channel but none of those make any valid arguments for why you would choose any of their units over a comparably priced unit that is better built, better supported *support for DiveCAN is VASTLY superior to analog units. If KISS didn't exist I'm 99% sure that @Shearwater would discontinue the analog monitors* and less annoying to deal with *yes solenoids are less annoying than CMF's*.

 

[jale]

Sidekick-actually is probably the least offensive of the lot for open water diving because similar to the Choptima concept it allows you to clip it onto any rig and you have a CCR. Problem with the sidekick is the breathing is really bad in any sort of vertical orientation so if you have to go vertical for some reason for any length of time you have to come off the loop. Also these without a sphere on the bottom are not fun to dive and the spheres are both very hard to find and extremely expensive *also not technically legal to transport or fill since they don't have DOT stamps and can't be hydro'd but that's a different discussion*

Hi
Regarding the pricing, I agree that it is a bit "misleading" but I see KISS units as second units even, as you correctly said, we can see more and more Sidewinder being chosen as first unit due to the net hype.
For the Sidekick, your remarks are also valid but you don't need at all a sphere to dive it. A 2 or 3L tank well placed on the unit or one butt mounted is also perfectly good. The wob on vertical position is easily counter balanced by anticipating and filling the loop with more gas.
The good thing about the SK, like the Choptima, SM Liberty and the Triton is that it is easy to adapt on your "standard" set-up with minimal hassles.
After, we all know, it is about compromise at every level

 

[tbone1004]

Hi
Regarding the pricing, I agree that it is a bit "misleading" but I see KISS units as second units even, as you correctly said, we can see more and more Sidewinder being chosen as first unit due to the net hype.
For the Sidekick, your remarks are also valid but you don't need at all a sphere to dive it. A 2 or 3L tank well placed on the unit or one butt mounted is also perfectly good. The wob on vertical position is easily counter balanced by anticipating and filling the loop with more gas.
The good thing about the SK, like the Choptima, SM Liberty and the Triton is that it is easy to adapt on your "standard" set-up with minimal hassles.
After, we all know, it is about compromise at every level

I dive a unit very similar to the Sidekick, but the strapped on O2 bottle is annoying when on boats since it takes up a lot more space and also makes it very unstable to stand up. I wouldn't use mine without a sphere, though I do strap a 3l to it for dil for sidemount cave diving.

Vertical head up I still get really bad chipmunk cheeks and head down is like sucking treacle through a stirring straw. I do prefer it to the concept of the Choptima and I love diving it with a set of doubles as bailuent/dilout but I do prefer the rack mounted units for boat diving

 

[jale]

I dive a unit very similar to the Sidekick, but the strapped on O2 bottle is annoying when on boats since it takes up a lot more space and also makes it very unstable to stand up. I wouldn't use mine without a sphere, though I do strap a 3l to it for dil for sidemount cave diving.

Vertical head up I still get really bad chipmunk cheeks and head down is like sucking treacle through a stirring straw. I do prefer it to the concept of the Choptima and I love diving it with a set of doubles as bailuent/dilout but I do prefer the rack mounted units for boat diving

Yes for boat diving it is not a perfect solution and you are right that with a set of double, it is really good. Talking about that, I do not understand why GUE didn't use this concept for their CCR. Indeed, you can keep your long hose and everything else and it is more modulable...
From a boat, some times , I only plug the dil (oxy being already plugged with tank on the unit) and walk with the unit like if it were a stage. I only clip once in the water.
The Choptima and Triton concept are not that bad

 

[Wibble]

@tbone1004 - thoughts on Flex and SF2?

 

[tbone1004]

Yes for boat diving it is not a perfect solution and you are right that with a set of double, it is really good. Talking about that, I do not understand why GUE didn't use this concept for their CCR. Indeed, you can keep your long hose and everything else and it is more modulable...
From a boat, some times , I only plug the dil (oxy being already plugged with tank on the unit) and walk with the unit like if it were a stage. I only clip once in the water.
The Choptima and Triton concept are not that bad

I'm not GUE obviously, but even with LP104's or LP121's for bailout you are still having to bring tons of stage/deco bottles into the cave for long range diving and the unit does get really annoying to clip stuff in and out of the left hand side but the rack as it is follows the RB80 concept reasonably well and overall is easier to deal with so long as you can physically fit in the area that you're intending to go.

@tbone1004 - thoughts on Flex and SF2?

Flex-at $6500 it is a way better purchase than the KISS though US support is somewhat funny and it still has the physical constraints of carrying O2/Dil. It does have top mounted lungs which makes WoB more predictable and stable and uses the Meg style scrubbers which is nice. It does make it hang more like a steel tank on your side though which is not as ideal as the Sidekick/SF2 if using it without a sphere where they behave more like an AL80
SF2-at $8500 it's too close in price to the Liberty which solves the onboard bottle conundrum and the bellows counterlung is nice if you are diving slightly headup but really not ideal compared to top mounted lungs for WoB or long range cave diving where the other side of your body is likely going to have a big steel bottle that hangs fairly heavy.

Of note though that I am coming at this from someone who is 6'3" and can easily dive LP121's in sidemount with no issue. The Sidekick/SF2 with a sphere and the Flex/Liberty are all very long for most people if you are sidemounting them.

 

[stuartv]

Unfortunately @Shearwater is not supporting conversion of older units since they do not allow dealers to purchase the 4-pin variants of the Petrel/NERD so those of us with Fischer cables are stuck with them unless we go to another brand.

Nope. Not stuck with Fischer cable.

I sent my Fischer cable NERD2 to the U.S. Shearwater service center and had it converted to a cable with the 4-pin connector.

My understanding is that Shearwater USED to not do/allow that, but they changed their stance on that a few years ago.

 

[Whitrzac]

Kiss sells like 2 classics a year. Most of the ones you see out in the wild were bought 2nd hand where them being simple, reliable and cheap makes them a decent starter CCR

 

[Marie13]

Kiss has stopped offering the Sidekick for the time being. That was announced when they recently issued updated price sheets for the Classic, Spirit, and Sidewinder. Their orders right now are overwhelmingly for the Sidewinder with a few Spirits sprinkled in.

 

[tbone1004]

Nope. Not stuck with Fischer cable.

I sent my Fischer cable NERD2 to the U.S. Shearwater service center and had it converted to a cable with the 4-pin connector.

My understanding is that Shearwater USED to not do/allow that, but they changed their stance on that a few years ago.

my comment was that you can't buy a 4-pin cable Shearwater unless you buy it from either Revo or KISS. As of a few months ago when we last asked that was still the case. Buying a Fischer computer and sending it off to get a 4-pin is fine if you have to replace the Fischer cable anyway but to do it on a new computer is stupid.
Since @DiveGearExpress doesn't even have them on their website but they do have the new Petrel 3 with Fischer I am going to safely assume that even they can't purchase the 4-pins and not waste @Shearwater s time by calling and getting the same answer again. Will keep using Divesoft until that changes even though I much prefer the Petrel.

I should note that the Fischer does have the singular advantage of having a bulkhead fitting on the Petrel which does make it easier to use for O/C diving without the long cable, but that's it's only redeeming quality.