Looking for advice for my first backplate and wing purchase

[MichaelMc]

The second may have been me. Effortless horizontal trim definitely makes diving easier. Moving away from diving like a sea horse is hard without shifting ballast or constant skulling.

Two 2 lb. weights ziptied and taped to an AL plate create an AL+lead plate that is nearly as compact and easy to deal with as a SS plate, but tailored to exactly where you need the ballast.

You can get lead ingots various places, Lead Mini Ingot Pure 99.9% ~ 1 Pound, or use with small dive weights. I ziptie + gorilla tape where my plate has handy holes. But gorilla tape is likely enough for small weights by extending the tape to both sides of the plate. It's rather tough stuff.

If your weighting needs call for a lot of lead, then SS makes perfect sense. I dive NorCal with about 20 lb of ballast, some in a SS plate. I also have an AL plate for pool or tropics, with some lead added near the top.

Yes, SS might get you mostly there. But playing with different weight fins complicates your fin choice, playing with tank position moves it from what might be a better position for looking up yet still reaching the valve. And then you can no longer change any of these, as they are crucial for your trim. The only reason we have lead is for its weight, so shifting it to affect trim avoids complicating other gear choices.

 

[stuartv]

@MichaelMc you definitely make valid points.

So far, I have always been able to get my trim dialed in without having to put trim weights on, just by adjusting the position of the BP, the tank, and the wing. Or, with doubles, also by trying different wings. I have had some doubles wings that required a tail weight, no matter what I did - but I got rid of those and found wings that don't do that.

I cannot refute your points that are in favor of AL. But, I have had 3 different SS plates now and never needed to put on lead for trim. I have generally only needed lead at all when diving in Cozumel, with an AL tank. There, I put trim weight pockets on a tank strap - and I chose the top or bottom tank strap accordingly to have good trim.

 

[MichaelMc]

I agree, a SS plate as your only ballast may trim horizontal. Or you may get trim right by filtering your other choices by what works with SS for trim.

Or you could ensure you have some lead to move around and use some zip ties and tape. I went the tape and zip tie route. To me it goes with the modularity theme for BP/W. Limiting my wing/tank/fin choices based on my plate choice seems to go against that.

ETA: A cut out steel plate will be even better than the AL for this as it has lots of places to anchor the zipties!

 

[runsongas]

With regard to the shell thickness, are you talking about the "new" DGX wing? Or the old one that was identical to the Dive Rite Travel EXP wing?

I was diving with a friend all last week who was using the new DGX wing. I have 2 of the VDH wings (18 and 35). I didn't notice any difference in the shell thickness, but I freely admit that I did not really try to assess the DGX wing in that regard. And, I did not have my VDH wings there at the time, either. I looked at the DGX wing and it seemed nice and of good quality, to me. Plus, the DGX return policy means you really can't go wrong with it. If it's weak and tears up in 2 years, you can return it for full credit of the original purchase price.

As for the pull dump elbow, if you order a DGX wing, my friend requested a plain elbow instead and they swapped it out at no extra charge. That is what I would do if I ordered the DGX wing. Having the elbow (pull dump or plain) pull off the wing is very unlikely, but the potential results are so ugly that I just would not want a setup that encouraged me to be pulling on that corrugated hose. A buddy and I went to dive in NC back in December. On the very first dive, he jumped in and went to begin his descent by pulling on the butt dump valve of the wing on his CCR. The whole dump valve came off in his hand. The threaded part of the flange on the wing had broken right off. That is the same kind of threaded flange that is on the wing where the elbow attaches. I really try not to pull on that elbow - except during a pre-dive check....

@purbeast - if you are using 6# of weight in the pool, with an integrated BCD, then I would go for the SS plate. I'm assuming that you meant that you have 6# when in shorts (no wetsuit) and in fresh water. If that is correct, and you are preparing for salt water in a 3mm, it sounds to me like even with a SS plate, you might still need a couple of pounds of weight (presuming you're diving an AL80 or AL100).

On the question of what wing and size, I have put my money where my mouth is. For warm water, tropical diving, I got the VDH 18. I would only buy the 23 if my intent was to have one compromise wing that would cover all my diving and I was NOT going to do any real cold water diving. Once you throw cold water into the plan, you'd probably need a wing with more lift than 23. In which case, the DGX 30 or the VDH 35 would be a fine choice, I think.

If you're only going to dive warm water, or if you are going to buy a bigger wing at some point anyway, then, to me, the VDH 18 is a great choice. But, as someone else already pointed out, if you get the DGX or the VDH 35, it will certainly do everything you currently foresee. You would never NEED to buy another wing (for single tank, anyway). Though the 35 is more lift than you need for warm water, it is still a very compact and nicely streamlined wing. As is the DGX.

Bottom line: I would get EITHER the VDH 35 or DGX wing, OR the VDH 18. I wouldn't bother with the 23. The 23 seems like a bit of a pointless compromise, to me. If you're going to use a larger-than-necessary wing, may as well get one of the bigger ones to cover all possible future bases. Those bigger ones are still very nice to dive. OR, get the one that is ideal for your current plans (the 18) and wait to buy a bigger wing later, if/when you need it. You can't really go wrong either way.

the new one they are selling. the vdh wing is 1680 denier shell with 400 denier coated bladder. new dgx is 1000 shell with 200 bladder. the dive rite wings are 1680 shells with 210 bladders.

 

[Bowers]

@purbeast if you plan to try a plate then maybe change it out later... i would recommend the larger wing. you are absolutely right that its not crazy expensive or difficult to buy another plate and change out later on.
for reference i dive with a ss plate and either doubles lp72s or a single hp100 when diving dry so that i need very little lead. I use my aluminum plate and a single lp72 when wearing a 3mm suit for teaching in the pool, and i come out perfectly weighted.
i do not disagree with @stuartv that ss would work fine, i just want to inform you of pros to both sides.

 

[purbeast]

Man this is a lot to take in but I appreciate all of the replies!

I have to admit though, the whole concept and term of "ballast" is something that I am not aware of, so off to google and learn what that actually means!

 

[stuartv]

Man this is a lot to take in but I appreciate all of the replies!

I have to admit though, the whole concept and term of "ballast" is something that I am not aware of, so off to google and learn what that actually means!

Ballast == the weight you add to your rig to balance your overall buoyancy (so you can be neutral with an empty BCD/wing and an almost-empty tank). Your lead.

 

[purbeast]

Oh okay thanks. I thought it was something more than that hah.

 

[MichaelMc]

For us ballast (lead, steel plates, heavy fins) is more than just buoyancy. It is also location.

Sailing ships have metal ballast low to push them toward upright. Cargo ships have ballast tanks low. Dive boats do not want all the heavy divers on one side tipping the boat that way. The heavy divers are more cargo than ballast, but they are mass that moves about. Submarines have big main ballast tanks and smaller fore and aft trim ballast tanks. For us lead is our ballast, but so is extra steel in plates, or even deliberately heavy buckles, or heavy dive fins. Sticking all your lead/steel in some one standard place for it is like filling the main ballast tank, but ignoring the fore and aft trim tanks. It will get you neutral at depth, but likely leave you a bit canted in the water. Having some lead whose location you can pick is like being able to divide ballast between fore and aft tanks to get you level. No sane submarine with shifting needs would be built without fore and aft ballast adjustment.

If your fins are negative and you use frog kick, you can easily shift their location a bit fore or aft in their resting state to tweak your trim. That and sculling help adjust to the dynamic conditions of the dive. But they can only adjust for so much imbalance and do have a more ideal resting position if trim worries were ignored. Picking some theoretically otherwise identical fin that is twice as dense is like adding ballast aft.

If our needed gear, tanks regs etc, makes us negative, then we have no ballast needs and thus can not use ballast location to help fix trim. But diving steel 72s + solid SS plate vs. AL 80s + cut out steel plate is locking your ballast into your tank and plate, not having no ballast needs.

 

[eelnoraa]

I think you guys are over thinking it by a large margin. First of most, the difference between SS plate AL plate is a bout 2-3lb. Most SS plate claimed to be 6lb actually measured below 5lb. AL is about 2lb. Most situation, you can use AL plate + 3lb of lead without know the difference.

My rule of thumb is this, for travel to warm tropics, just get AL. If you need a few lb, it is very easy to carry. If you dive in colder water with 5mm wetsuit and above, get SS. If you want one plates to cover all possible usgae in future, get AL. But keep in mind, it may not be the optimal for any one situation.