Long term Second stage wear: Does the Atomic Titanium hold up?

[beanojones]

Long term Second stage wear: Does the Atomic Titanium hold up?

I am wondering about whether the Atomic Titanium second stages actually end up lasting longer than say a ScubaPro G250 or an Apeks Tx50 second stage.

Has anyone had an Atomic and a similarly aged non titanium barrel second stage actually wear differently? Specifically in terms of where the lever pivots.

Or have the plastic inserts into the barrel to protect that lever point making the point moot? (Obviously that does not help old G250s)

 

[Fred R.]

There is no appreciable wear of the titanium of an Atomic regulator. I base this on the thousands of dives I have done with an Atomic T-1. I wrote a testimonial for Atomic;

Fred Riger recommends Atomic Aquatics

You can check that out. Since I wrote that testimonial, I have done another 1500 dives on the regulator.

I cannot compare the Atomic to ScubaPro, I have never used Scuba Pro products and probably never will. That is not a comment on the quality of ScubaPro, I am sure they are fine. I cannot abide by their dealer terms and restrictions.

 

[beanojones]

What made you get the Atomic in the first place? Was it the titanium in the sceond stage, and the thought that it would stop corrosion?

That's what made me buy the second stage. But I did not dive it with a regular chromed brass barrel one on the same rig so I got no direct comparison about wear.

I assume that where you are (small tropical island) and where I was (small tropical islands, but in the Pacific) made us think along the same lines. I know that in the Pacific we all got excited about the titanium reg for the same reason we got all excited about titanium knives: no corrosion.

 

[Fred R.]

DEMA 1997, Atomic introduced their titanium regulator. In an all too typical male fashion I got a bad case of what we used to call “Got-to-have-it”. I like shiny things. I like exotic material (I purchased a Kevlar BC that year, it is still my cavern rig). I also purchased Ocean Master’s first offering of a titanium dive knife.

I have come to refer to these things as ‘Scuba Bling’. I have justified their purchase in my mind as the scuba equivalent of an Armani business suit.

The good news is that the titanium is everything that it is supposed to be. Thousands of dives and it is corrosion and wear free. I wish I could say the same for the plastic parts. The purge covers only look good for a month, the logo wipes right off. They have to be replaced every two years as the plastic degrades into something that looks like chipped roof shingles. Atomic is aware of the issue and is happy to charge for new ones. Over the years I have had to replace almost every non-metal part including the yoke screw.

Brass is not a great material to make regulators out of. It is a great metal to machine, which should make regulators inexpensive. I am not sure how stainless steel will fare. I buy tools made of stabilized stainless for use on the boat. I have a six inch adjustable wrench that lives in my BC pocket and is almost as maintenance free as my titanium knife. In my experience, steel can be stain LESS, but it will never be stain FREE.

If Atomic sends me one of their stainless first stages, I’ll be happy to test it under the harsh real life conditions we dive.

 

[Luis H]

I am sure Atomic makes excellent regulators with Titanium parts (or whatever other metal they select), but all this hype about Titanium is a bit exaggerated as being a cure all metal.

Chrome plated brass has shown to be a fantastic material for regulators and valves, if the regulator is well designed to start with. I dive plenty of regulators that are 40 and 50 years old that work as good as new and they are all made out of chrome brass.

Some of my old regulators are double hose, but plenty are Scubapro Mk-5 with the metal adjustable second stages, others are Poseidon Cyklon, and I have many others like Voit MR-12, etc. Several of the regulators I owned since new, but others I have but used. Some of the used regulators I bought cheep because they show a lot of neglect of abuse. Most of them I have rebuilt and they work great.

I grew up diving in Puerto Rico where the conditions are tropical salt water and warm/ hot moist environment all year long (cars rust much faster than in New England). Also lots of sand and wind on a number of dive sites (I learned to hate DIN fittings when diving from a windy, sandy beach).


Chromed brass does not rust (as mentioned in another thread). Rust is the term used for iron-oxide or steel corrosion, even stainless steel. The brass/ copper oxide are normally referred to as verdigris and it is a green self limiting oxide. It may sound like a technicality, but there is a big difference between the oxides in both families of metals.

Stainless regulators were tried back in the 70’s by Sportways and my impression is that they were a disaster. When two threaded stainless parts corrode together it can be close to impossible to take them apart (or can cause galling). Stainless parts are also not forgiving to any minor damage.

Therefore, IMO, if a well design regulator made chrome plated brass has last me 40 years and it will probably be around for easily another 40, why do I want to spend big dollars for un-proven materials. “You can’t build a reputation on what you are planning on doing”, Henry Ford.


The Atomic second stages also includes the seat saving feature, which IMHO, it is not such a good idea (actually, it is almost a bad idea) and basically un-necessary for a pneumatically balanced second stage. The spring force pushing on the soft seat in a pneumatically balanced second stage is very light and adding the seat saver all it does is open the second stage to allow moisture and water into the regulator. To rinse an Atomic after a dive it is best if it is pressurized on a tank. The feature also adds more unnecessary parts and O-rings.


Atomic has tried very hard to make an excellent regulator and they are not cutting corners to save a few bucks, but as always, there are pro and cons to every design decision. There is no magical material or magical answer. It will probably be another 30 years to see if there regulators will last the test of time like a Scubapro MK-5 / 109…and they will never catch up to prove there long term durability as compared to a US Divers Conshelf, or a Royal Aqua Master, an Aqua Master…and definitely could never come close to a vintage Mistral. They just have 40 and 50+ year’s head start to show there long term durability…many are still holding like new and many of this old brass favorites will be just as good in another 40 years.

 

[beanojones]

Puerto Rico must be different than the Pacific because no chromed brass lasts in the Pacific.

Especially second stage inlet tubes. There is a huge difference between owning gear, and diving gear that is never dry. Four dives a day 365 days a year will kill chromed brass. We did not imagine our G250s failing, they just did.

Yes US Divers Conshelf lasts forever because the demand lever in the second stage pivots against a replaceable washer. (They also breathe like crap so no one uses them except in rental.) The USD first stages are a diaphragm design which is always longer lasting than the unsealed piston. But they have a different failure point in that yoke mating surface is one piece with the body so a dropped set of gear that is mounted on the tank an cause odd failures througout the first stage.

What Atomic did was use the better performing balanced second stage and remove the corrosion that caused them to die early.

Chromed brass corrodes to failure. It does. Maybe not where you live, but it does where I live. Yes it takes a long time, and lots of salt, and lots of dives. But it does happen, the chroming wears away on the place where the demand lever sits. The stainless lever in the second stage then eats away at the square on the tube, because the tube is soft brass, until it is no longer square, and then you have to either buy a new inlet tube, or throw the second stage out. Or if you have an old ScubaPro all metal second stage you cannot replace the tube on you, just have to throw them out.

Is the all metal ScubaPro the 109?

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

These are some interesting opinions. I can't say that I agree though.

I am sure Atomic makes excellent regulators with Titanium parts (or whatever other metal they select), but all this hype about Titanium is a bit exaggerated as being a cure all metal.

I'm not sure about what hype your talking about. But in terms of strength and corrosion resistance, Titanium is far superior to brass, plated or otherwise. It's the far lower cost, both in purchasing and production that make plated brass the most often used metal.

Chrome plated brass has shown to be a fantastic material for regulators and valves, if the regulator is well designed to start with. I dive plenty of regulators that are 40 and 50 years old that work as good as new and they are all made out of chrome brass.

Again, plated brass is most often used because it fulfills the requirements of being adequate to do the job, while remaining affordable. That doesn't mean it's the best metal for the job.

Chromed brass does not rust (as mentioned in another thread). Rust is the term used for iron-oxide or steel corrosion, even stainless steel. The brass/ copper oxide are normally referred to as verdigris and it is a green self limiting oxide. It may sound like a technicality, but there is a big difference between the oxides in both families of metals.

I have no idea what thread you're referring to here. You might want to correct the person in the thread that actually states it.

Stainless regulators were tried back in the 70’s by Sportways and my impression is that they were a disaster. When two threaded stainless parts corrode together it can be close to impossible to take them apart (or can cause galling). Stainless parts are also not forgiving to any minor damage.

I would have to no why they were a "disaster". SS and the ability to work with it have come a long way since the '70's. I'm also a little confused about the "not forgiving to minor damage," issue. Given that SS is far stronger than plated brass. Any impact strong enough to do serious damage to SS would do even more damage to brass.

The Atomic second stages also includes the seat saving feature, which IMHO, it is not such a good idea (actually, it is almost a bad idea) and basically unnecessary for a pneumatically balanced second stage. The spring force pushing on the soft seat in a pneumatically balanced second stage is very light and adding the seat saver all it does is open the second stage to allow moisture and water into the regulator. To rinse an Atomic after a dive it is best if it is pressurized on a tank. The feature also adds more unnecessary parts and O-rings.

Moisture really isn't an issue in my ST1's second stage. There's nothing in there that moisture can effect. As far as needing to rinse it pressurized, this isn't necessary. Atomic recommends that you pressurize it if you soak or purge it, but rinsing it un-pressurized is just fine. I also know of no extra o-rings in the seat saving device and have no data, anecdotal or lab, to say that the other parts in the seat saving device have any negative effect on it.

I'm not here to be a staunch advocate for Ti or SS, or to be anti-brass. I just disagree with some of the assertions you're making.

 

[beanojones]

Just a note: I was the one that used the word rust about chromed brass in that other thread, I am pretty sure. I will be more careful to say corrosion from now on. Because as Luis H points out it is a different thing. I was using 'rust' as a shorthand for corrosion.

 

[beanojones]

. I also purchased Ocean Master’s first offering of a titanium dive knife.

...
The good news is that the titanium is everything that it is supposed to be. Thousands of dives and it is corrosion and wear free. I wish I could say the same for the plastic parts. The purge covers only look good for a month, the logo wipes right off. They have to be replaced every two years as the plastic degrades into something that looks like chipped roof shingles. Atomic is aware of the issue and is happy to charge for new ones. Over the years I have had to replace almost every non-metal part including the yoke screw..

Two questions about your experienes:
1. Are you still using the Ocean Master knife? (I could not remember the name until you mentioned it. Does the edge hold up?

2. Do the cockroaches eat silicone where you are? We had to store our gear in water to keep the cockroaches from eating masks and second stage diaphragms one place I worked.

 

[Luis H]

I'm not here to be a staunch advocate for Ti or SS, or to be anti-brass. I just disagree with some of the assertions you're making.

Titanium and Stainless steels are both great engineering material. They are strong and titanium is relatively light and has excellent corrosion resistance.

I have specified several Titanium alloys back when I worked on the design of Navy towed sonar equipment and even earlier in my career when I worked on some spaced deployed antennas.

Many stainless steel alloys are also excellent materials for many marine applications. I particularly like 17-4PH. It is far stronger and much more corrosion resistant to the 18-8 series of SS (304, 316, etc.).

There are definitely some applications that justify and require the materials mention even if they are much more difficult to machine and manufacture.

Springs and first stage pistons have always been better made of some stainless alloy, but that are also not normally in direct contact with other metal parts.

The corrosion resistance of titanium is outstanding, but stainless is not in the same category. Many of the nickel alloys are far superior to stainless for corrosion.

The cost of a material will also involve the cost of manufacturing and machining. In the case of a regulator it just seems hard to justify paying two or three times as much for a regulator that will not perform any better.

IMHO it is very questionable that a titanium regulator will last three times as long as regulators that have a track record of several decades.

The point of both write ups is that there is no magical material…there is always a compromise and there are always pro and cons to every design.


Beanojones may have a very special situation were he has to store regulators submerged to avoid roaches, but I dough that the salinity of the water where he dives in the South Pacific is much different than in the Caribbean.