Long Hose in public

[Derek S]

So if I have this right, a few of you who claim to be either DIR trained or “follow” DIR diving protocols, are refusing to dive with non DIR divers in recreational dive settings because of the following:

A) They may unexpectently run out of air and pose a danger to you.

B) They don’t know how your gear works.

C) You feel that you can not count on anyone else being able or even willing to help you out if you have a problem.

Back up the train there bucko. I never said that I flat-out refuse to dive with non-DIR divers. As a matter of fact, I dove yesterday with a non-DIR diver who had about 10 logged dives. It was in local waters that I'm very familiar with, and we didn't exceed a depth of 45FFW.

Now as far as the second part, I agree with RTodd completely. I work very hard for my money, and I'll be darned if I'm going to spend $2K-$3K to go on vacation, and get stuck with a random diver who only dives once or twice a year on vacation and hasn't been in the water (save for a "refresher" if I'm lucky) in 6 months. If that makes me sound like a jerk or zealot, then so be it.

 

[Tavi]

Back up the train there bucko. I never said that I flat-out refuse to dive with non-DIR divers. As a matter of fact, I dove yesterday with a non-DIR diver who had about 10 logged dives. It was in local waters that I'm very familiar with, and we didn't exceed a depth of 45FFW.

Now as far as the second part, I agree with RTodd completely. I work very hard for my money, and I'll be darned if I'm going to spend $2K-$3K to go on vacation, and get stuck with a random diver who only dives once or twice a year on vacation and hasn't been in the water (save for a "refresher" if I'm lucky) in 6 months. If that makes me sound like a jerk or zealot, then so be it.

Derek,
Cool!! If you go to the Bahamas with me this fall, It'll be like insuring that you have a buddy on your vacation.

 

[jonnythan]

DIR or not, I'd rather dive with a GOOD BUDDY than an unknown buddy, especially when paying big bucks on vacation or doing challenging dives in the river. I do dives in the ocean with non-DIR buddies, but they're good buddies who know what's going on. I do dives at Dutch Springs with anyone. I do my St Lawrence diving with DIR divers because it's the most challenging diving I do and among my buddies the GUE trained ones are by far the most skilled and trustworthy in the water. That's not to say I'd never do challenging river dives with someone non-DIR, but I haven't really found any yet.

It just so happens that the best buddies I've found are GUE-trained buddies.. take from that what you will.

In my limited experience, most of those divers who are really focused on being very good divers gravitate towards GUE.

 

[RTodd]

Now for C; By this statement, you are saying that all divers are bad, dangerous, and unreliable, and only DIR trained divers are worthy of your gracing them with your presence under water. Sheesh, with feelings like that about other divers, it’s no wonder people have a stand off attitude towards some of you. Count yourself in the minority of DIR divers out their, and not the good ones either.

I truly wish they had a more stand off attitude. Many divers general attitude makes them hopeless for DIR diving, and it makes it harder to identify those you can help. Take Grajan's posts. He seems to have the right attitude. It would be great if we could turn him to the dark side. Compare them with the above post, and I can't figure out why you are even posting in this forum. I am happy to argue with you about it so I am not whining for you to leave the DIR sandbox. I enjoy the confused look on a pigs face when you try to get them to sing. But, I suspect the mods cringe every time I reply to something this far off base since I don't carry any small hammers.

Your teamates are the most important part of your dive gear. Therfore, those of us that are strictly DIR won't dive with a weak link. This is crystal clear for those that fully understand the system and gets murky for those that are trying to pick it up from the internet or are freshly minted from DIR-F and are desperate to get in more dives. Trying to say those that truly understand DIR and can fully implement the system are anti-social because they would never get in the water with someone with the wrong attitude is a huge misunderstanding of what the system is designed to do.

 

[Snowbear]

...But, I suspect the mods cringe every time I reply to something this far off base...

Maybe just a little

 

[Daryl Morse]

We don't dive with random buddies or do solo dives. Not worth it. The team is properly assembled or the dive does not happen.

All I can say is wow, I guess you're not planning to take the DIR Ambassador-1 course any time soon.

Using the Royal We, of course, when "we" go on a business trip, "we" like to take along "our" dive gear with the intention of going on a boat dive. Since "we" travel alone, "we" get partnered with a buddy that "we" have never seen before and will likely never see again. "We" still have a great time in spite of the terrible inconvenience of diving with a buddy who uses a BCD and an octo. "We" think it's well "worth it" to get an opportunity to dive in new places and meet new people.

Seriously, I just got my bp/w and regs (with long hose) and most of my buddies dive with the same configuration. For those who don't, I explain to them that in an OOA situation, I will donate the reg that's in my mouth. I show how it's done on the surface. I've never met anyone who had an issue with it.

 

[hermosadive]

All I can say is wow, I guess you're not planning to take the DIR Ambassador-1 course any time soon.

I don't think RT is trying to be the Ambassador to anything. He's stating hie own personal preference to dive following the DIR guidelines. Its his choice and don't think he's trying to force the same guidelines on you or anyone else. DIR is more than a backplate and long hose. That said, some people my choose to follow DIR guideline in particular diving situations, such as a cave or wreck, and these same people may choose to "just dive" while on a vacation in Cozumel. Isn't it great to be able to decide things for yourself?

 

[chrisch]

You folks that dive with a long primary. Lets suppose that you are on vacation w/o any of your normal dive buddies. You setup your kit and whip out the long hose. Have you had a "random buddy" take issue. Any demand a new buddy because you "broke" the standard? Just courios how it is accepted by the non-dir dive community.

Thanks

The long primary hose is Hogarthian not DIR. If we accept that then there are many ways to stow a long hose, not just HOG looped.

There's a lot of commonsense in this thread (and some BS!). I too would not attempt an advanced dive with a new buddy. Pre-dive (aka "buddy") checks should be able to overcome any problems about hoses, reg stowage etc.

I am a long hose convert and would suggest that a conventional hose length diver can be coverted by a practical demonstration, why not show them on the 10foot safety stop?

The real problem are the vacation divers who maybe make 5-10 dives a year and never dive without a DM. These dive tourists are not people who think about what they are doing in depth (pls excuse the pun).

I would rather lay on the beach than do this sort of diving so I can't answer your question. However, with divers slightly further up the food chain I have never had a problem.

Chris

 

[RTodd]

The long primary hose is Hogarthian not DIR. If we accept that then there are many ways to stow a long hose, not just HOG looped.

Chris

Chris, this is not directed at you. I see this all of the time and this partial adopter mindset seems to be part of the misunderstanding about how the DIR team system works.

Let me correct one huge misconception here that because of the way this board's forums have been set up seems to be exacerbated. Hogarthian and DIR are the same thing equipment configuration wise. It used to be called Hogarthian, now it is called DIR. The name was changed when GUE was formed primarily to empahsize the other important aspects of the system rather than just the equipment which is what Bill "Hogarth" Main's name is accredited to. The only thing that has changed with the equipment since the name change is we have swithced to stainless clips. A few other minor tweaks are always occuring, but that is the "biggest" one I can think of. Just using a 7' hose or a backplate doesn't make one remotely hogarthian or DIR. Granted, the original guys don't feel as strongly about some aspects of the entire DIR philosphy, but showing up dressed like a star wars bar scene extra and claiming to be Hogarthian and thus mostly DIR is silly.

DIR is an expansion of the Hogarthian rig into the whole mindset of proper team oriented diving. Hogarthian is not code for, okay they were right about the long hose being a good idea and I can no longer argue that with a straight face, but I am going to wear bondage wings and stuff the hose because that is my personal preference.

 

[RTodd]

I don't think RT is trying to be the Ambassador to anything. He's stating hie own personal preference to dive following the DIR guidelines. Its his choice and don't think he's trying to force the same guidelines on you or anyone else. DIR is more than a backplate and long hose. That said, some people my choose to follow DIR guideline in particular diving situations, such as a cave or wreck, and these same people may choose to "just dive" while on a vacation in Cozumel. Isn't it great to be able to decide things for yourself?

Please don't use the term personal preference, I will have an aneurism. But, yes. The vast diving public is not quaified / does not have the right mindset to be proper DIR divers. Not trying to be elitest there. My brother rides mountainbikes competitvely. When I ride with him he is forced to deal with a "stroke" that does not take it seriously enough despite knowing better. Same thing, just far less life threatening.

My posts are aimed solely at the few who are interested in this type of diving in order to correct what would otherwise be misinformation. And the team concept is central to this type of diving. Can you safely dive with a non-DIR buddy in the right environment - sure. But it is a really slippery slope and it is not as safe to be diving without a thorough team oreinted approach and, with more experience, most learn generally not worth it. There are quite a few fresh out of DIRF guys on here that post information that is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, but I let that go because they are on the right track and are trying. This issue is an example. They have not fully learned exactly what it is to be a part of a diving team since it takes time and not just having it explained to you. So, they don't quite appreciate the importance.