Limits: what they are, why they are important and how to establish them

[1000RR]

It doesn't substitute, experience augments. In a short time you will appreciate how experience, self-reflection, and conversation with dive buddies and on Scubaboard will help you target formal training you want. It will also increase what you get out of formal training.

“The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.”
--- Albert Einstein​

Maybe I should revise the question a little... At what point does increased experience (with no further formal training) increase your limits in diving? It seems that there is a point with experience (plenty of it) that your limits likely begin to expand. For example, if I had done no night diving, I would not personally go out on my own doing a night dive (my imposed limit). But if I went with an experienced night diver and they took my daughter and I on a night dive a few times, I would be much more likely to go on a night dive w/my daughter without them being there (on my own). So through additional experience (some informal training one could argue too), I've expanded my limits.

 

[Edward3c]

Maybe I should revise the question a little... At what point does increased experience (with no further formal training) increase your limits in diving? It seems that there is a point with experience (plenty of it) that your limits likely begin to expand. For example, if I had done no night diving, I would not personally go out on my own doing a night dive (my imposed limit). But if I went with an experienced night diver and they took my daughter and I on a night dive a few times, I would be much more likely to go on a night dive w/my daughter without them being there (on my own). So through additional experience (some informal training one could argue too), I've expanded my limits.

The problem with learning by experience is you don’t know if the ‘experienced’ person is doing what should be done. I would recommend doing your first night dives with an instructor, or at least under the supervision of one.

 

[1000RR]

The problem with learning by experience is you don’t know if the ‘experienced’ person is doing what should be done. I would recommend doing your first night dives with an instructor, or at least under the supervision of one.

I think we're saying the same thing... or my hope was to say what you said above. In this example, if I didn't take formal training but I did go with someone who "knew" (Instructor level, etc.) then I presume that my limits have now been expanded potentially without formal training but rather through experience (and obviously some informal training/instruction), yes?

 

[nolatom]

Excellent post.
you mentioned "conditions". Current will wreak havoc with my time and turn-point ideas, it's just more work to do everything, so allow some extra air for it. And, for the anxiety that current will bring you.

Water temp. Cold water eats air, at least for me.

Rambunctiousness of known buddy, or unpredictability of insta-buddy. You'll fin farther, and get more distracted, or stressed, trying to keep them between the margins of your dive plan.

 

[The Chairman]

where does experience begin to substitute for formal training in some form or fashion and how do you know?

Ignorance is ignorance. It's not that you substitute formal training with experience and remain ignorant. Rather, there are a host of places where you can learn about diving other than a formal setting. Like right here on ScubaBoard. We have peeps like Akimbo who post, and frankly, you should take every word of his to heart. ScubaBoard not only provides for additional 'cyber' education, but it also fills holes in the education you already have. I have certain aspects of diving I really harp on during training and limits is one of them. I can't tell you how often I've heard people tell me that they've never really thought of diving in terms of limits before. Yikes! Here, you are exposed to what I teach just as my students are exposed to what others, like Akimbo teach. It's a win/win and all of us get to learn a bit more. You can be sure, that my teaching has been changed over the years reading how other instructors do things.

However, don't confuse education with training. Head knowledge is great and needed. However, application of that head knowledge is best done with a guide or trainer. I can tell you how I dive all day, but dive with me a few times and you'll find yourself thinking... "Ah, that's why/how he does that!" Nothing beats seeing an example first hand. Experience is great and earned by hours underwater. But without knowledge and application of that knowledge, it can only take you so far.

I suspect they feel quite comfortable

Yeah, and feelings aren't all that reliable. I like how Akimbo put it earlier:

The most important part of all is to constantly expand and explore the logic supporting your limits so you see them as "it is stupid to exceed them" rather than "limitations on what you feel like doing".

is that bad?

An old preacher once told me "If in doubt, do without!" While he was talking about being nice to others and doing right, I think it applies here as well. If you're not sure you're ready: you're not ready. However, if you think you're ready, you might be, but then you might not be. Be sure but realize that not I, nor anyone else, can make that decision for you. You and you alone are responsible for your diving.

 

[Akimbo]

Maybe I should revise the question a little... At what point does increased experience (with no further formal training) increase your limits in diving?...

It depends on the limits. You might avoid going deeper than 80'/24M because you detect that Nitrogen Narcosis (augmented by increased CO2) is compromising you perceptions and maybe your judgement. Experience will teach you to more effectively manage your breathing, therefore CO2, and therefore Narcosis.

The same thing happens with:

• Managing a safe surf entry
• Improved navigation skills increases the distance you feel safe venturing from the anchor line
• Experience usually reduces gas consumption and CO2 production, which affects everything
• Familiarity with any environment reduces your risk and anxiety -- which influences your limits

See how experience, education, and the analytical effort you invest are so intertwined that a simple answer would not do your question justice? Don't forget that "formal" training can include taking an online course at the Khan Academy. A good diver is a curious diver.

 

[1000RR]

An old preacher once told me "If in doubt, do without!" While he was talking about being nice to others and doing right, I think it applies here as well. If you're not sure you're ready: you're not ready. However, if you think you're ready, you might be, but then you might not be. Be sure but realize that I, nor anyone else, can make that decision for you. You and you alone are responsible for your diving.

Very well put. Your previous post to this answered my question. Thank you!

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, great OP. Regarding experience and depth, these can change. Early on I did more charters and some deep shore diving. Still do a little of that the last few years, but most of my diving has been VERY shallow shore dives. While I got DM cert. and assisted on quite a few OW checkout dives, my overall knowledge of a lot of stuff increased, but these too were 20-30 foot dives. Now when I do dive deep/boat, I have to think about it significantly more than someone else who has a similar number of total dives.

 

[NorCalDM]

Great post! I think this goes along with another post about learning. The factor that sticks out for me is Judgement, judgement about your training, judgement about your experience, judgement about conditions and so on sometimes it's flawed and that is when things go bad. I have a dive buddy that I no longer dive with or DM for because I don't trust his judgement, he recently became an instructor with the minimum number of dives "I was the DM for his OW class" and now he is all knowing about diving and is closed off to learning. The way I look at things your never as good as you think, your training never stops and doesn't have to be with an instructor and I have no problem walking away from a dive even if it just doesn't feel right. Now I'm not saying my judgement is perfect I just feel it is a huge factor in life.

 

[1000RR]

It depends on the limits. You might avoid going deeper than 80'/24M because you detect that Nitrogen Narcosis (augmented by increased CO2) is compromising you perceptions and maybe your judgement. Experience will teach you to more effectively manage your breathing, therefore CO2, and therefore Narcosis.

The same thing happens with:

• Managing a safe surf entry
• Improved navigation skills increases the distance you feel safe venturing from the anchor line
• Experience usually reduces gas consumption and CO2 production, which affects everything
• Familiarity with any environment reduces your risk and anxiety -- which influences your limits

See how experience, education, and the analytical effort you invest are so intertwined that a simple answer would not do your question justice? Don't forget that "formal" training can include taking an online course at the Khan Academy. A good diver is a curious diver.

Between you and @The Chairman, there is a LOT of wisdom going on here - but more importantly a great approach to sharing it in a way that makes sense. Thank you both. This makes a lot of sense and helps connect the dots to answering my question(s) above. Thank you!