Level of Instruction

[MechDiver]

Sydney_Diver once bubbled...
HI Phil
The PADI PPB course is great, I tack it onto the end of every Open Water Course FOC

Now that is value added instruction! I applaude you :yea:

 

[ERP]

MechDiver once bubbled...


Ahh, but is it? I don't think I agree. Driving instructors teach what is required to pass the test. Flight instructors teach skills and responses that are required to pass the flight exam. You learn to drive well, and fly well by doing it.

A scuba instructor is tasked to teach you enough to breath underwater and perform certain skills to a predefined standard, and not kill yourself. Thats it. Is it enough? Obviously in most cases it is. Is it the way it should be? No, but the mass market dictates the rules.

That is exactly my point, this is what OW Certification is.
It isn't about teaching someone to dive. Expecting it to turn out a good divers is like expecting driver training to turn out good drivers.
The best an instructor can do is to instill what good diving is both by example and verbally in class, and encorage divers to want to continue to improve beyond the OW class.
I think that the agencies intent is that instructors do this, unfortunately it's impossible to ensure that this is the case.

One obvious solution would be to increase the difficulty of the OW test and include elements of buoyancy control. But I'm not sure this buys you much, since the student has to want to bother to stay off the bottom.
Going back to the driving analogy, I passed my original driving test in England, when I moved to the States about 8 years ago and took the American test, it was little more than a joke by comparison. IME although most English drivers probably have better fundamental driving skills than their American counterparts, there are no fewer bad drivers in England than there are in the US.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It takes time for everyone to learn. If divers don't see "good they can't aim for "good" and they will never be "good"

My biggest issue is with the instructor who is pictured standing on the bottom. No competant diver would even be comfortable in that position and they sure wouldn't do it in front of their students. He is teaching them to do it in OW. I see divers do it all the time. My class hovers and watches. I sometimes even motuion for them to hover. They have no idea what were trying to say. They are diving the way they were tought. That is a problem.

 

[DiverBuoy]

O-ring's pictures are funny. But the commentary about being on the bottom of the pool in this thread is getting ridiculous. OF COURSE in the pool students have to touch the bottom. Some skills require it - such as fin pivot or remove and replace BC. Get real.

Students are intelligent enough if you relate it all to diving they will get it. We tell them "here in the pool where we practice skills I'll have you kneeling on the bottom or laying on the bottom... however when we get to open water (indicate modified behavior) ..." When it comes time to practice bouyancy skills focus solidly on those skills, reinforce good behavior, be a model.

It seems ridiculous to take some random photo of a guy standing in the pool or kneeling on the bottom and criticise bouyancy. Puh-leeze.

 

[DiveTub]

Yep I agree with you totally on that
some skills are impossible to teach without touching the bottom, but it must be stressed when teaching that when diving the sand, reef and rock are out of bounds !
I had a little giggle at the pics as well

 

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
O-ring's pictures are funny. But the commentary about being on the bottom of the pool in this thread is getting ridiculous. OF COURSE in the pool students have to touch the bottom. Some skills require it - such as fin pivot or remove and replace BC. Get real.

Students are intelligent enough if you relate it all to diving they will get it. We tell them "here in the pool where we practice skills I'll have you kneeling on the bottom or laying on the bottom... however when we get to open water (indicate modified behavior) ..." When it comes time to practice bouyancy skills focus solidly on those skills, reinforce good behavior, be a model.

It seems ridiculous to take some random photo of a guy standing in the pool or kneeling on the bottom and criticise bouyancy. Puh-leeze.

Then you tell us Why di I see...
So many divers (not students) leaving silt trails and causing total siltouts

Divers standing on the bottom

Divers swimming head up foot down

Divers vertical and negative kicking like crazy truing to maintain depth

Oh yea and why do I see instructors with the same form?

Why are divers so amazed by the GUE guys? I'll answer this one. It's because GUE put cave level skills in front of OW divers and they never seen it before. The time to start learning this stuff is in the beginning.

DiverBuoy,
Your an instructor right? For one class try demonstrating all skills hovering horizontal. You and your assistants stay off the bottom even for shallow water skills. When you demonstrate UW swimming demonstrate a frog and modified frog along with other finning techniques. I also demonstrate turns and backing up. When it comes time to do neutral swimming take the time to get students trimed for a horizontal position. Of course, in the classroom explain the mechanics of trim. When it comes time to hover work on it until they do it horizontaly. If you need to move weights around do it. Give them some time to practice this stuff in the pool.

Then come back and tell me your students don't look 100 times better in OW. Your students will look better by dive 4 than most (if not all) of the experienced divers around them. Try it once. I have a few more things I do but it's too much for this post.

One word of warning though. if you start teaching this way you won't go back. Also you will have a hard time finding staff because most instructors can't do this stuff without some practice.

The one single thing that has had the biggest effect on the quality of our students is getting the entire staff off the bottom and horizontal ALWAYS. I realize that for a fin pivot and bc removal we are required to use the bottom. I'm NOT NOT suggesting a violation of standards.

I think I got it that time! boy that was close!

 

[DiveTub]

Mike
Be careful what you are teaching your students, even though you want the best for them you may well be breaching standards by adding this additional Task loading to the courses.

All agencies are very clear on what is to be taught and adding extra to the course can well be considered in breach of standards

 

[DiverBuoy]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I realize that for a fin pivot and bc removal we are required to use the bottom. I'm suggesting a violation of standards.

Now Mike I'm not intent on pissing you off. I just want to point out that you don't seem to be giving students (who are taught properly) enough credit.

There is room for all of this trial and error crap in confined water. I know you don't really mean what your saying about standards violations because I've read enough of your posts to understand that you are passionate about buoyancy control.

And I too have gained some momentum from your posts about buoyancy. It may be possible without voilating standards to establish neutral buoyancy in mid confined water without the fin pivot method. But fine tuning breath control when you've never scuba dove before can be tricky with a majority of students.

But I gaurantee your classes would never finish if you tried a mid confined water removal and replace BC and weight belt remove and replace.

So it can't be true that what you are suggesting here is perhaps to leave out these standards all together at the bottom and teach them only on the surface. I find this view extreme (it wouldn't be the first time I've felt that about your comments). There is plenty of time during confined water exercises to help beginners gain a strong mastery of bouyancy - without having to skip any skills that serve as building blocks toward that mastery.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...


Now Mike I'm not intent on pissing you off. I just want to point out that you don't seem to be giving students (who are taught properly) enough credit.

There is room for all of this trial and error crap in confined water. I know you don't really mean what your saying about standards violations because I've read enough of your posts to understand that you are passionate about buoyancy control.

And I too have gained some momentum from your posts about buoyancy. It may be possible without voilating standards to establish neutral buoyancy in mid confined water without the fin pivot method. But fine tuning breath control when you've never scuba dove before can be tricky with a majority of students.

But I gaurantee your classes would never finish if you tried a mid confined water removal and replace BC and weight belt remove and replace.

So it can't be true that what you are suggesting here is perhaps to leave out these standards all together at the bottom and teach them only on the surface. I find this view extreme (it wouldn't be the first time I've felt that about your comments). There is plenty of time during confined water exercises to help beginners gain a strong mastery of bouyancy - without having to skip any skills that serve as building blocks toward that mastery.

That was a typo I meant to say I'm not suggesting a standards violation. I will edit the post before I get in real trouble.

 

[detroit diver]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
O-ring's pictures are funny. But the commentary about being on the bottom of the pool in this thread is getting ridiculous. OF COURSE in the pool students have to touch the bottom. Some skills require it - such as fin pivot or remove and replace BC. Get real.
.......

And therein lies the problem (or one of them anyway!). If the agencies spent the time used for removing your BC and doing fin pivots, maybe they could use that time to work on bouyancy and trim-and don't tell me a fin pivot does either of those.