Lessons to be learned....

[Rick Inman]

Funny thing though - I feel bad 'waking up ' the fish on the night dives..i yell at Will for shining the lights in their faces - HOW WOULD YOU LIKE A LIGHT SHONE IN YOUR FACE during nap time??

Actually, fish don't "like" or "dislike" anything in the human terms we relate to. They "respond" based on preservation instinct, but they don't talk or feel or have any of the advanced human characteristics represented in Disney cartoons. So let's not base our actions on magical thinking about these animals.

I do agree with the don't touch rule. But for pragmatic reasons. Number one, in Coz it's the law, and if we're going to dive there we should abide by it.

Second of all, with the great number of people who dive there, we humans could easily destroy one of the most beautiful coral reef systems in the world, and then it would not be there for us to enjoy.

I often fly fish in Idaho and Montana where the rule is catch and release. It must be that way, or the multitudes of fisherman would wipe out the fish populations. However, if I had my druthers, I'd rather catch and kill and eat the things.

OK, have at me...

 

[Cozoholic]

Actually, fish don't "like" or "dislike" anything in the human terms we relate to. They "respond" based on preservation instinct, but they don't talk

Are you absolutely positive they dont talk? I swear while I was in Coz last week a parrotfish was mouthing "Leave me alone". HA HA HA Just kidding...All I meant was that night especially is their time then we come down there with lights and disturb them resting. Like I said before, I love diving - but we just dont belong down there

 

[Tim Ingersoll]

I think that there is a real dabger when you start to anthropomorphize as a justification for the no touch rule. When you attribute human form or personality to things not human you end up with some really skewed views of the environment. If it doesn't have a forehead it doesn't "feel" anything in the sense that you and I do. I won't refrain from touching sea creatures on this basis.

Secondly, if its the law and we should all obey it why do the sworn protectors of the reef in Coz (the DMs) persist in picking things up and touching them? What sort of example is this for all those divers? Isn't it really some middle ground between "don't touch anything" and "ride the sea turtles"?

 

[rottielover]

Hooked4life- I think you and I have a unique perspective that only those of use that keep reef tanks have (for some reason). You and I handle corals routinely, propogating, buying, selling, etc. That human urge to touch something unknown is very strong, and hard to resist. I wish there was a better way of getting it drilled into people's heads "do not touch".

Depending on the situation, my personal view would have been to strike up a conversation with the family (maybe durring a SI). I would then bring up my experiance with keeping a reef tank, corals, fish, etc. then start talking about just how delicate they really are, how even touching some species can kill them. I think that would have gotten my point across to them (hopefully), and it was done it such as way as to not make anyone angry.

I'm a big fan of the old saying: "You catch more fly's with honey, then vinager".

EDIT: P.S. If you wanted to see some pictures of my Reef tank, here is the link: http://scottsaltwater.blogspot.com/

 

[ggunn]

Hooked4life- I think you and I have a unique perspective that only those of use that keep reef tanks have (for some reason). You and I handle corals routinely, propogating, buying, selling, etc. That human urge to touch something unknown is very strong, and hard to resist. I wish there was a better way of getting it drilled into people's heads "do not touch".

Before I started diving, when my daughter was about 6, on a trip to Cozumel I was snorkeling to the bottom out behind the hotel and picking up brittle stars and hermit crabs to put in the shallow water where she was playing. Then I picked up a bristle worm and learned the "no touch" rule firsthand and the hard way.

 

[chuck86]

If you want a bunch of finger prints put up a wet paint sign, everyone will touch it. Tell them they can't touch and they will just to spite people. It is human nature, wrong in my opinion but it happens.

 

[sharky60]

Sometimes even making an effort not to touch things you can still get in trouble.

A couple of years ago in Coz, I touched 'something', I still don't know what it was, the tips of 3 of my fingers on my right hand had numbness & extream sensitivity in them and the top layer of skin would dry and flake off much like when your chalices peel when they get built up from playing guitar a lot. If I accidentally bumped one of the finger tips pain would shoot through my hand up as high as my elbow.

This is when my doctor and I went through our old Groucho Marx routine:
Me: "Doc, it hurts when I do this"
DR. Tim: "Don't do that!"

thanks a lot! 10years of school and that's the diagnosis I get!!

This happened for almost a year! I didn't handle ANYTHING on that trip, so it had to be something I inadvertantly touched.

Hands off it the best policy!!!

 

[Scott101]

When you attribute human form or personality to things not human you end up with some really skewed views of the environment.

I guess you have never had a dog.....

If it doesn't have a forehead it doesn't "feel" anything in the sense that you and I do.

And this is based on what scientific study?

I won't refrain from touching sea creatures on this basis.

Thats because you have a forehead, right?


Far be it for me to preach one way or another but some of these attitudes kill me. "Never touch anything, except .....etc" or "Don't touch but check out the crab I caught". The bottom line is Don't touch...period!

There is no need to, none at all. Plus, when you touch something, 9 out of 10 times it takes off so the rest of us can't enjoy it. You are a visitor to their homes....just look and enjoy. I doubt that you would like it if people started coming up and down your street, picking and plucking your flowers, kicking the cat and dog, knocking down the fence for a good pic. Try to see it that way for once. Or better yet, treat the water as your best friends wife or husband....might look really good but I've had the big lick if I touch.

Heck, I called a dive once because the DM kept picking stuff up and by the time the rest of us got to it, it was long gone.

Okay, now stepping off my soap box. Sore spot with me.

 

[Tim Ingersoll]

I guess you have never had a dog.....



And this is based on what scientific study?



Thats because you have a forehead, right?


Far be it for me to preach one way or another but some of these attitudes kill me. "Never touch anything, except .....etc" or "Don't touch but check out the crab I caught". The bottom line is Don't touch...period!

There is no need to, none at all. Plus, when you touch something, 9 out of 10 times it takes off so the rest of us can't enjoy it. You are a visitor to their homes....just look and enjoy. I doubt that you would like it if people started coming up and down your street, picking and plucking your flowers, kicking the cat and dog, knocking down the fence for a good pic. Try to see it that way for once. Or better yet, treat the water as your best friends wife or husband....might look really good but I've had the big lick if I touch.

Heck, I called a dive once because the DM kept picking stuff up and by the time the rest of us got to it, it was long gone.

Okay, now stepping off my soap box. Sore spot with me.

I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to take the challenge. Why do you believe that the "don't touch" rule should be followed in all cases? Is it because it is the law in Coz or because the animals have rights? Lets face it we are all tactile creatures and there are things that we only learn by touch. It improves the empirical experience and increases understanding. If it brings no visible harm to the arrow crab why shouldn't I be able to bring it out of the hidey hole and show it to my buddy who has never seen one? If the moray eel is free-swimming and I touch it as it goes by what harm? Does it have the right not to be touched?

There are four things that I have touched while diving that have a tactile sense that is frankly indescribable and have added new meaning to the underwater experience: 1) the shell of a free-swimming turtle; 2) the skin of a free-swimming moray eel; 3) the skin of a free-swimming reef shark; 4) the nose of a free-swimming dolphin.

Now the dolphin you will have to acknowledge is properly an exception and in the same category as petting a strange dog. It approached me and seemed to not only allow contact but actually crave it. The others certainly tolerated contact and in the case of the shark and eel certainly could have made it clear that I had violated their sense of "personal space" by biting me.

I'm not saying that the don't touch rule doesn't have a place. If I don't know what it is I don't touch. If I may harm it by contact (coral) I don't touch. I am saying its a silly rule if every DM in Coz routinely violates it and encourages others to violate it.

By the by I do have a dog. He may have what I perceive to be emotional responses to physical stimuli but he has no rights because he cannot exercise those rights in interaction with humans. His only rights are derivative of human rights (ie we have laws against animal cruelty not because the animals have rights but because we perceive it to be immoral to cause harm to a sentient life for no other purpose than to obtain personal gratification).

OK now take back the soapbox. And be nice cause if we get nasty the Scubapatrol will lock up the thread and throw away the key.

 

[Tim Ingersoll]

By the by. . .some interesting reading on fish and pain: http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/s/c_fea_Becher_fish_pain.html