Legality of "cave fills"

[NW Dive Dawg]

I think that an underlying issue here is that some folks cherry pick which safety standards they want to follow and which safety standards they want to ignore.. My personal litmus test in making these decisions is usually to evaluate the level by which my "choice" in any way affects the rights or safety of others.

For example, some divers will advocate and support their personal right to have a "cave fill" and then those same divers will complain about or otherwise critique another divers right to use a back mounted pony or an Air 2, etc, etc. I'm not taking a side here....I'm just say'n!

And I'm no angel when it comes to tank fills that exceed the DOT listed max working pressure. When teaching and filling my own tanks I would routinely fill my 3500psi rated HP steels to 4K while in the cold tank. Then after a couple hours after they cooled down to 3500 I would bring them back up to 4K again.

 

[Still Kicking]

And if you're the guy being sued for improperly securing your cargo?

Who would you throw under the bus?

You mean, drag them under the bus with you?

 

[nadwidny]

In the aftermath, how would they know the cylinder was over-pressurized?

It would be found empty and in a damaged state...

That becomes hearsay, unless there is some form of documentation managed...

In the case where a steel cylinder exploded in Waterton Alberta some 30 years ago, it was determined that the cylinder was most likely over-pressurized because all of the cylinders present had their burst disks plugged and also the compressed had its' OPV plugged. Also it was documented that the shop owner/person doing the filling walked away from the fill area to chat with people for several minutes. It was reported that he suddenly remembered to check on the fills and just as he got there...boom.

There was no law suit because (A) it's Canada and (B) the shop owner died in the explosion.

 

[cerich]

Cave Excursions was sued 15 years ago or so for an O2 cylinder explosion that killed one the employees instantly.

It was not being filled when the explosion occurred. It was being passed off from the diver to the fill station employee when they fumbled it.

I know of a bunch of lawsuits, workplace safety type investigations and sanctions (in various places, thus why didn't say OSHA as that is US centric), here is another deco/O2 scuba tank one Trust But Verify , one in Aussie Explosion during the filling of scuba cylinders | WorkSafe Victoria
There were a few in S FL late 90's-early oughts as well, a kid (teen) at Force E lost a limb and there was legal stuff ..

Speaking of attorneys.. at least one is looking to file scuba tank explosion lawsuits.. so there is that

Scuba Tank Failure Accident Attorney

Scuba diving is a pleasurable hobby, for people who enjoy being out in the natural oceanic marine life venues. This is a beautiful way to connect with our oceans, see marine animals and coral reefs, and view oceanic natural habitats underwater. But scuba tanks can fail, and with that will be a...

www.losangelespersonalinjurylawyers.co

 

[broncobowsher]

While we are down this rabbit hole, what about this passage...
What if I were to get a piece of heavy steel pipe and weld the ends shut, Put in a valve, fill it up with compressed air, and go diving with it? My welds would probably blow up, but if I was a good welder, maybe done some pipeline welding in my past. Something that doesn't blow up when filled with air.

 

[cerich]

Indeed. I think it would be a long stretch to find someone criminally liable for breaking a regulation.

Peter Sotis may have a different opinion.

But as far as cave fills go, I completely agree.

ref Sotis, pre all the other stuff "blowing up" (pun intended) legally for him, you recall all the discussions on him importing and selling non DOT cylinders? Funny enough, I don't believe that ever ended up being a legal issue for him (should have IMHO) and was an early "hint/tell" regards the type of person he was among the greater dive industry/community(because his felony bank robbery seemed to not bug many of his industry fans because he was just the get away driver)

 

[CT-Rich]

In the aftermath, how would they know the cylinder was over-pressurized?

It would be found empty and in a damaged state...

That becomes hearsay, unless there is some form of documentation managed...

I think they would just have to show a pattern of behavior and get rando “expert” to say it was a likely contributing factor.

 

[CT-Rich]

While we are down this rabbit hole, what about this passage...
What if I were to get a piece of heavy steel pipe and weld the ends shut, Put in a valve, fill it up with compressed air, and go diving with it? My welds would probably blow up, but if I was a good welder, maybe done some pipeline welding in my past. Something that doesn't blow up when filled with air.

That would likely get some trouble, but I agree with others that the civil courts are the ones that are going to punish you. A home made scuba tank like you describe should probably get treated like a pipe bomb. High pressure and no over pressure release/ burst disk, I would not want it in my boat/car/garage.

 

[admikar]

And if you're the guy being sued for improperly securing your cargo?

Who would you throw under the bus?

And where is your proof?
But I agree that will definitely work in a system where out-of-court settlement is actual goal

 

[Lorenzoid]

Speaking of attorneys.. at least one is looking to file scuba tank explosion lawsuits.. so there is that

Interesting that his website doesn't mention anything about explosions.

There are many scuba tank failure injuries that are common to these types of accidents. You can experience any number of injuries with a scuba tank failure accident, including:

Arterial gas embolism
Decompression sickness
Drowning
Shark attack amputations
Immersion induced pulmonary edema (IPE)
Oxygen toxicity
Nitrogen narcosis
Drowning
Stingray attack heart related issues
Paralysis
Barotrauma
Ear issues
Sinus issues
Ruptured inner ear
Pulmonary issues
Pulmonary vasculature
Mediastinum
Heart issues
Lung injuries
Decompression illness