LDS or Internet

[TorontoDive]

One tone I seem to pick up from most LDS vs. IDS threads including this one is that it is mostly the owners/instructors coming here to defend the LDS meanwhile it is the customers here defending the IDS!! You don't see Larry coming on here defending his position, he has flocks of satisfied and loyal customers to do it for him. In many of the cases where it is an LDS customer defending the LDS position - even he/she will say that they have bought things online and the only reason they keep going back to the LDS is because of the great service.

Why do the LDS owners and affiliated instructors have to keep coming on SB to defend why their prices are higher and that the consumer should continue to shop there? The writing is on the wall - the IDSs are doing something right, either adapt or go broke!!

Sidenote: one thing I do have a problem with is people using the LDS as a fitting room for buying online....don't waste other people's time when it never was your intention to buy there.

 

[SteveDiver]

Quote:Why do the LDS owners and affiliated instructors have to keep coming on SB to defend why their prices are higher and that the consumer should continue to shop there? The writing is on the wall - the IDSs are doing something right, either adapt or go broke!!


Well Stated....

 

[tm55417]

How is training not a money-maker? A shop has ten OW students in a class at $200/per. Students buy mask, fins, snorkel, and the biggest knife in the case. Owner/instructor spends 32 hours in class ($0, effectively). Weekend in the pool ($0). Students pay their own freight to the checkout dives, students pay for materials, food, etc. I am not clear on this point, unless the shop owner HIRES someone to do the classes."

Let me first say, I'm not a shop owner. This is just my observation, but I have a feeling it is pretty accurate.

For years, before internet sale were big, shop owners sold their classes as either loss leaders or for very little profit. The idea being, once we get them certified, they are gonna want to buy gear. We will make our profit there.

Along comes internet sales. People find out they can get gear cheaper online. Pretty soon, the profit center for the LDS starts to dry up. Of course the problem is, they've been selling their instruction so cheap for so long that now they can't raise prices on the main thing the internet can't offer. People don't understand why the open water class that used to be $300 is now $500.

Essentially, the industry changed with the internet and some LDS's are having a hard time catching up.

Personally, I don't advocate one type of retailer over another. Buy your gear from who ever you want. That's your right. Shop owners can either treat you with respect and give the service that is requested, or they can turn you away because they don't respect your choices. That's their right.

Just don't preach to me that there is only one way to do it. There is plenty of proof out there that people can change their business model and succeed. I've seen it in my LDS's. If you have to preach, my guess is, you haven't figured it out yet.

 

[Azza]

Hey you guys that love the Internet stores! Don’t listen to the naysayer’s that say you can’t get fills and training. I can supply all that. You can buy everything off the net and use it with me in your training.

I don’t have a shop to support me so I am a little pricier than average but I will give you excellent training and good clean(ish) fills (I actually use my next-door-neighbours compressor that he uses for operating his nail gun-he is a builder- so we work around when he is home )



Prices are as follows



Open Water $1000*

AOW $1580*

Rescue $1200*

Wreck $2000*



Air Fills $99

Nitrox $Varies. O2 is supplied at $1 per litre + Air Fill

Tank Hydro $450

Tank Visual $325

Reg Servicing (1st stage) $380

Reg Second stage service $280

BCD Servicing $420



*You need to supply your own gear, including tanks and weights; air fills are extra as are pool and boat fee’s (We use boats for everything-no crappy shore diving here )

• I have final say if your gear is adequate for the training or not
• I will supply your course manuals however they are extra $$. I do not library.
• If you don’t pass the course then extra tuition is charged at $100 per hour
• All courses to be paid in CASH. No zip zap, credit cards or cheques
• All payments in New Zealand Dollars. Foreign currency will be accepted however will incur a 4% surcharge.

Look forward to training with you.
Azza

 

[lamont]

personally, i would love to see fills, classes and services cost more.

having overpriced gear pay for underpriced fills/classes/service is a market distortion. and underpriced classes leads to all the PADI oodles and oodles of specialty classes effect. crank the prices up and people would probably be more descriminating and demand more out of the classes.

either way the net effect on my wallet is the same if you work out the math, so lets try it...

 

[Azza]

personally, i would love to see fills, classes and services cost more.

having overpriced gear pay for underpriced fills/classes/service is a market distortion. and underpriced classes leads to all the PADI oodles and oodles of specialty classes effect. crank the prices up and people would probably be more descriminating and demand more out of the classes.

either way the net effect on my wallet is the same if you work out the math, so lets try it...

I agree completely. Problem is their is always one b*stard that will hold out and ruin it for those trying.

We had a similar thing happen where I live. Shops were offering $199 OW classses and my lds put it to the others to all raise their prices to $450 (Which while market standard here; is still about half what should be charged) and everyone agreed. Come the time only two out of the 5 shops did it.

Scum suckers is an appropriate term for them...

 

[PhotoTJ]

I guess that no one here other than LDS owners is at risk of being laid off as a direct result of internet sales or service.

Do you go to a resturant and ask why their burgers cost more than McDonalds?

 

[DallasNewbie]

I agree completely. Problem is their is always one b*stard that will hold out and ruin it for those trying.

We had a similar thing happen where I live. Shops were offering $199 OW classses and my lds put it to the others to all raise their prices to $450 (Which while market standard here; is still about half what should be charged) and everyone agreed. Come the time only two out of the 5 shops did it.

Around here, that's illegal. I would be surprised if there weren't similar laws against price fixing in NZ.

Scum suckers is an appropriate term for them...

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Well... I'm no expert in economics...or the law...but I'm pretty sure that what Azza mentioned is not price fixing or illegal...here or in Oz. On the surface it sounds like it , but I don't think it is.

Anyways...

I agree that training is way under valued. But raising the prices will only result in less students and less students equates to less customers. The result would be fewer people buying less gear, continued education, and trips.

Besides, if you raised class prices to something reasonable...soon there would be internet certs at half the price. Then the LDS is right back where they started...greedy, overpriced scoundrels...

Quite awhile back I set up a DIRf...got it scheduled with MHK...got my shop to host it...yada, yada, yada. EVERYBODY was IN. All were so excited to be doing this. They were definites...well right up to the part where they had to pay. Then I got all kind of flak over the cost...the typical DIRf cost, BTW...nothing extravagant. I learned many lessons during that fiasco.

Hmm...what are some other reasons training is so cheap? Could it have anything to do with the fact that there are about a bazillion instructors and that becoming an instructor is so quick and easy? How 'bout the fact that a lot of instructors are willing to work dirt cheap...all for the life style...or just to be in the sport...or for whatever reason.

How much are golf lessons an hour? How about sky diving or tennis? Pretty wierd that scuba is so cheap, huh?

 

[Azza]

Around here, that's illegal. I would be surprised if there weren't similar laws against price fixing in NZ.

It wasnt price fixing at all. It was simply a few shops trying to undercut each other to the point of stupidity. Everyone was hurting. Sure volumes more students were coming through but the same amount of money was being made, and staff were burning out left right and centre. Imagine doing 80 hour weeks teaching diving and sometimes only having one day off a fortnight. Would you like to be a student under an instructor thats nearly done 80 hours that week?

So a few shops got together and said "Hey lets stop being stupid and start selling courses back at what they used to be"
Everyone agreed, then some decided they would use the opportunity to fleece other shops.

I stand by my scum sucking comment!