LDS or Internet

[RonFrank]

Shopping, buying, whether locally or on the 'net will always have pros and cons.. (debated MANY times on these forums)

My LDS provides services that cannot be matched online... If you buy your gear there (and they try to match prices VERY competitively)..

You will receive:

Free loaner equipment while repairs / maint. is being performed
Free air fills
Great advice, and friendly service..

If you buy your stuff on-line (or another shop) then you pay for air, you pay for maintenance, and you do not recieve free loaner equipment.. but you are free to rent in the meantime.

Provide Free loaner equiment, or free air fills. My buddy dropped a small fortune on his equipment at our LDS. He pays for tank rental, just like me, and after the first service (which I believe he does get free) he pays for all service as well. So he got maybe $75 in free service, and he spent at least $500 (likely close to $700) more for his equipment via the LDS. I can tell you, the LDS REALLY likes his business

 

[The Kraken]

Not to split hairs or anything, but my (old) knighthawk, as well as both oxycheq wings have had serial numbers on them.

Matt

Hey, Looney Bird,
That was probably the patent number - a little tag with a number sewn onto the harness?

the K

 

[BabyDuck]

i understand how annoying it would be for the lds to have someone shop, pick your brain, try things on, waste your time, and buy online. i also understand how good those online prices look. i see the point about supporting an lds and keeping the business going so you can get local fills, etc.

my problem with all this is the lds attitude (expressed by al) that unless you bought *all* your stuff with them, you are a second (or third, after renters) class citizen. i bought my stuff in a florida lds. now i live in nc. it is none of my current lds's business where i got it as long as i have warranty cards, and yes, they asked me where my stuff was purchased. if i said 'scubatoys online', would that have been a different story? how about 'scubatoys, i used to live in texas'? 'diveriteexpress'? 'ee in cave country'? as long as i'm taking stuff in for warranty covered service with a warranty, why should they give a rat's butt? they would be better off to be nice rather than surly, and to my lds's credit, they were, but it sounds like i'd have not been treated well in al's shop (and others with that attitude, to not pick on him too much) and hopefully he wouldn't wonder why i never came back. just because i didn't buy from your shop on your watch doesn't mean you get to treat me poorly. i understand that until i've been in & spent a bit & you know me, i don't get the freebies, but that's different from doing stuff i'm paying for just like the next person last because i didn't buy everything from you.

is the solution for everyone to ebay all their stuff if they move so they can re-buy from the lds so they can be treated well? remember, that means the person on the other end is now buying life support equipment online!

 

[jpsexton]

I've only got so much expendable income and I have to spend it wisely. As much as I would like to support my LDS I don't know if I can justify it.

I will soon be buying two sets of gear for me and my son. When I get ready to purchase I am going to give my LDS a chance to quote and I hope they come through but, when an authorized dealer like ScubaToys will match LesiurePro and sometimes even give you an additional 10% we are talking allmost a $1000 dollars difference. They even beat the service prices, and that includes shipping.

I'll support my LDS as much as I can but Scuba is an expensive hobby and I have to do what I can to make it affordable.

 

[Corigan]

Hey, Looney Bird,
That was probably the patent number - a little tag with a number sewn onto the harness?

the K

I know with the knighthawk it was a serial number. When I got the BC I had to come online and punch in the serial # to register the gear via scubapro. Right when I punched in the number it came up with who I had bought the gear through and everything. On the oxycheq wings it says "Serial #" and then has numbers in the box below. I would say they all were serials, but like I said it's just splitting hairs. I will show you the wing next time we get together and you can see what you think..

Matt

 

[The Kraken]

Nah, I believe ya . . .

the K

 

[paulwall]

First let me say that I believe in supporting my LDS, however there are an increasing number of internet scuba dealers popping up. They offer warranties and very good prices. Has anyone had any experiences with internet scuba dealers good or bad?

Thanks

Most recent Purchase(s). Scubatoys.com
Worthington LP95 Tanks $206.95 ea + $14 shipping (Ea). bought seprately to hide from the wife.

Polled all of the local Dive shops. They only sold Fabers $260, $260, $260, $259, $280.
(Plus 10% tax).

Took them in for a fill over the weekend, and was asked: "do you want to pump them up to 3000?" Of course I did, had them change out the burst disks, and pumped them up. $15 ea. The owner asked me how much I paid for them and I told him, and he said "Plus shipping" and I said $14 shipping. He was a little taken aback and said "Well when I sell the LP95's I change out the burst disks and give the first fill free". Even with that, he was still $20 higher than I paid for my tank before the taxes. I bit my tongue. He wasn't adversarial, but more bewildered that I could beat his prices.

He is likely the only LDS who will fill my tanks to 3000, so I will be going back. He doesn't rep the brands I'm loyal to, though. He's also a bit curmudgeonly, we discussed the other shops in the area, because nobody gives me the warm and fuzzy feeling. I doubt he'd bend over backwards to get near Scubatoy's price. But I never asked because he doesn't carry brands I'm interested in.

So, while I was there, I picked up a pair of low booties(because he actually did a little selling) and an accessory (I needed both), because I felt bad about making him eat credit card fees on a $30 sale, and I hadn't enough cash on me.

And that is the story of my $86 air fills

 

[mdb]

Most recent Purchase(s). Scubatoys.com
Worthington LP95 Tanks $206.95 ea + $14 shipping (Ea). bought seprately to hide from the wife.

Polled all of the local Dive shops. They only sold Fabers $260, $260, $260, $259, $280.
(Plus 10% tax).

Took them in for a fill over the weekend, and was asked: "do you want to pump them up to 3000?" Of course I did, had them change out the burst disks, and pumped them up. $15 ea. The owner asked me how much I paid for them and I told him, and he said "Plus shipping" and I said $14 shipping. He was a little taken aback and said "Well when I sell the LP95's I change out the burst disks and give the first fill free". Even with that, he was still $20 higher than I paid for my tank before the taxes. I bit my tongue. He wasn't adversarial, but more bewildered that I could beat his prices.

He is likely the only LDS who will fill my tanks to 3000, so I will be going back. He doesn't rep the brands I'm loyal to, though. He's also a bit curmudgeonly, we discussed the other shops in the area, because nobody gives me the warm and fuzzy feeling. I doubt he'd bend over backwards to get near Scubatoy's price. But I never asked because he doesn't carry brands I'm interested in.

So, while I was there, I picked up a pair of low booties(because he actually did a little selling) and an accessory (I needed both), because I felt bad about making him eat credit card fees on a $30 sale, and I hadn't enough cash on me.

And that is the story of my $86 air fills

Your comments are very relevant. If the LDS will understand that you will be back for
air fills, trips, accessory items, advanced classes etc. the LDS will benefit. Even though you still may encounter the LDS with the "no warranty, no air" lecture the stores that will survive will be those that realize that consumers are going to shop, internet or otherwise.

 

[friscuba]

I tire of hearing the same arguements from pro LDS people:

1 You woun't get air fills ever again if you shop internet.

Many dive boats offer fills right at the departure dock, or even on board. The LDS doesn't have a monopoly on fills. For what I save on overpricing by the LDS, I can chip in with a couple of buddies and BUY a compressor.

2 Warranty issues/ shopping/ repairs

I bought my Black Diamond BC for $700 from my LDS. 2 weeks later I find out LP sells them for $375. (Now $550- price increase). Double the price? Is service/repairs worth double?

The fact is, internet sales are no different from having a competitor open in your town- most internet sellers have a store front. LDS owners- you are now competing in the world market. They all are not grey market, either. Look at diversdirect.com. They have at least 4 stores in Florida of which I am aware. Learn to adapt your business model and compete, or the brick and mortar LDS will go the way of the dinosaur.

Maybe, at least when it comes to airfills, you ought to start think about the people who don't live in dive destination areas. How many dive boats are there in the roughly 30-40 states that aren't on a coastline? Out of the coastline states, how many of them have an active daily charter business? Shops going out of business because they can't compete with Leisurepro do affect a huge portion of the dive hobbyists.

People keep pointing out the exceptions (examples: Scubatoys, Divers Direct) and saying most internet operators have storefronts. Does Leisurepro (who dominates the mail order dive business) have a full service dive center offering training, fills, etc?

I do find it funny that you use Divers direct as an example of a storefront shop on the internet, and then mention LP when comparing pricing vs. the LDS. I noticed that Zeagle rangers at LP are a couple hundred bucks cheaper than at Diver's Direct, other BCD's are also hugely cheaper at LP. Inconsistant argument.

Internet competition is real and has real effects on local business. In most of the country, local shops are not blessed with being located at a diving destination with an ever changing and growing clinetele. Shops in those areas are going to be affected hugely by discount warehouse outlets. When they start to go, there will be an affect on the hobby as a whole.

If the warehouse discounters had all the business, we'd have maybe a shop or two in the Seattle area (where apparently some are going out of business right now), several in California, Hawaii, Scubatoys in Texas, Florida and maybe a few other east coast states. Getting instruction, airfills to practice your hobby, access to equipment to make decisions and such would be increasingly difficult for the vast majority of people living outside a few dive hotspots.

On any given day, the dollar savings going the internet way makes sense. The overall picture might not. Local shops with attitude maybe don't really deserve to succeed, but local shops who make a definite effort to service their customers deserve support.

Later,

 

[paulwall]

However, air fills and training are NOT money makers. If your LDS is fortunate enough, they will basically break even on those areas.

How is training not a money-maker? A shop has ten OW students in a class at $200/per. Students buy mask, fins, snorkel, and the biggest knife in the case. Owner/instructor spends 32 hours in class ($0, effectively). Weekend in the pool ($0). Students pay their own freight to the checkout dives, students pay for materials, food, etc. I am not clear on this point, unless the shop owner HIRES someone to do the classes.

If the dive shop is in it to make money (or at least break even) then training should be the place to do it. This is an area where the Internet cannot fill the void (well, it can, but that's a whole other enchilada, controlled by the certifying agencies). What happens if PADI/NAUI/SSI, etc. decide to set up online schools for classes? Then meet in the region for pool work/check out dives over a 4-day weekend? There's an idea (note to self-call PADI!).

I agree, LDS's need to be more user-friendly, less antagonistic, less holier than thou to succeed. I've shown I can't go into a dive shop and not walk out with a bag. I may never go back, but that's up to them. New divers can certainly benefit from a close relationship with the LDS. More experienced divers can usually make gear decisions with less input from the LDS, and more research.

No one dive shop in my area sells/services all brands of my preferred gear. They each excel/lack in some area. I choose to spread my money around (including Internet). Couple that with the fact that most of my gear is nearly 20 years old, and the LDS's aren't making much off of me, anyway. If the Mfg's would make gloves and booties that lasted, the LDS's would get even less of my business.

One other thing, I don't hear anybody being beaten up because they own their own air compressor for fills, nor those who build their own HID lights, or those who get fills from the Fire Department.