LDS or Internet

[SeeWorld]

Depends what you are buying. I like to get the life support EQ (reg,comp,BCD) where I can try it out, and get it serviced by people I know and can talk to. As far as the other stuff (fins,mask, weights) I have had very good experiencs from the reputable internet stores. (won;t mention here bec I do not know SBoard poilicy on promoting stores). Lastly, ask your LDS if they can match or come close to internt store pirce. Many LDS's will come down except where some manufacturers force price fixing policies on the LDS (legal?)
Hope this helps!,
SeeWorld

 

[sharpenu]

Maybe, at least when it comes to airfills, you ought to start think about the people who don't live in dive destination areas. How many dive boats are there in the roughly 30-40 states that aren't on a coastline? Out of the coastline states, how many of them have an active daily charter business? Shops going out of business because they can't compete with Leisurepro do affect a huge portion of the dive hobbyists.

If I thought about them, I would have to shop online at THEIR LDS, thus cutting mine out!

People keep pointing out the exceptions (examples: Scubatoys, Divers Direct) and saying most internet operators have storefronts. Does Leisurepro (who dominates the mail order dive business) have a full service dive center offering training, fills, etc?

According to the site, the shop is located at: 42 West 18th Street New York, NY

I do find it funny that you use Divers direct as an example of a storefront shop on the internet, and then mention LP when comparing pricing vs. the LDS. I noticed that Zeagle rangers at LP are a couple hundred bucks cheaper than at Diver's Direct, other BCD's are also hugely cheaper at LP. Inconsistant argument.

I did that because Diversdirect is in my area and when I bought my Black Diamond, I was quite upset to find out that my LDS had overcharged so much. Not really inconsistant, I shop around and buy wherever that good is cheapest. Sometimes, my LDS is cheaper, mostly not. I have bought stuff from Scubatoys, LP, Diversdirect (I walked in, they are 10 mins from me) and even a few LDS in the area.

On any given day, the dollar savings going the internet way makes sense. The overall picture might not. Local shops with attitude maybe don't really deserve to succeed, but local shops who make a definite effort to service their customers deserve support.

No one DESERVES my support. This is business. Did the icehouse deserve to be propped up when at home refrigerators were invented? How about candlemakers when the lightbulb was invented? The Mom and Pop grocery store when the supermarket came around?

Instead of trying to scare us into paying higher prices, they should be working on changing an increasingly unsuccessful business model.

 

[jbichsel]

As an LDS, I take exception to much of the LDS bashing here. I've seen statement like "I paid $320 for my XX reg 'cause the LDS had a price of $600".

Does anyone take time to think that maybe that $600 price isn't set in stone?

Most manufactureres REQUIRE an authorized dealer to display the MSRP. That does not mean the dealer has to charge that. There is always some play there. What about a 'package price'? I know in our store, that always equates to savings.

I know there are certain LDS that are unwilling to budge. If they are in a position and market where that works, I'd like to find out how and where. However, the majority of LDS's are able and willing to earn your business. If not, then they will be gone in time.

What about the LDS that is bound by the manufacturers agreement that does not allow any internet sales? Great quality gear, major brand, but no internet sales allowed. The LDS can have a website and say "We sell this brand, this model, but cannot quote a price over the internet, or email, neither can we tell you that we may be able to sell for less than MSRP". Hamstrung by these conditions, how does the LDS compete with grey market vendors?

You may say "Larry at ScubaToys does it", but ScubaToys does not carry this brand.

Do you just want that LDS gone? What if them going out of business means you now drive 45 miles instead of 5 for your airfill? At today's gas prices that can be a significant cost.

I think in many cases the LDS gets a bad rap partially their own responsibility but also due to the customer not taking time to get to know the LDS. Relationship building works both ways. Building a quality relationship between the LDS and the customer requires some give-and-take on both parts.

You may not save as much as buying online, but more than likely will not pay full retail. Plus you can have a source for last minute service, air fill, sales should the need arise.

It can't be a one-way street from either side. It must be a two-way street with respect and understanding from both parties.

 

[Wayward Son]

FWIW, I've heard from people who have been to the LP address. They say that there is a small showroom, not much gear in it, with counter sales. All the stuff is apparently wharehoused in the back.

Did not sound like they had any sort of training or fill station, but I dunno. Could be hidden out of site. I don't recall hearing from anyone who said they asked about those things. I also have no idea if they have any trained techs who can work on gear. Scubatoys does provide all of it. Fills, training, gear service. I don't recall seeing fills listed on the web page, but his training is, and service has at least been openly discussed.

With LP, I dunno if they can actually fix anything. I know some people have posted their own horror stories about LP leaving them cold when gear failed. No repair, no replacement. One person bought 2 BC's and they found the bladders to leak on the 1st dive. They claim that LP responded with "You got it wet, it's yours" and they're stuck with 2 new BC's that don't work. Another had a computer that failed & LP wouldn't do anything about it.

Others have reported that they've had failures & LP simply replaced the bad item. Which is perfectly acceptable. The thing that bothers me is the inconsitency, the people who report LP blowing them off.

If a grey market dealer refuses to remedy the problem, then what ya gonna do?

 

[ChikkenNoodul]

As an LDA, I take exception to much of the LDS bashing here. I've seen statement like "I paid $320 for my XX reg 'cause the LDS had a price of $600".

Does anyone take time to think that maybe that $600 price isn't set in stone?

Most manufactureres REQUIRE an authorized dealer to display the MSRP. That does not mean the dealer has to charge that. There is always some play there.

I understand what you're saying, but I know I'm not alone in thinking this way: I don't like to haggle with people, I want the price to be the price.

It's bad enough that I have to do it buying a car, I don't want to be doing it elsewhere

 

[LavaSurfer]

Try the EtherFill 5000 Internet Air fill system.
You can then download your air fills of the internet.
For better fill times though, a broadband internet connection is suggested.

see
http://www.diveriteexpress.com/gas/etherfill.shtml

Hmmmmm, I tried it and lost my connection due to a power bump. IT drained my tank and now I have condensation and need the tank serviced. I guess I need a more reliable internet connection or at least a backup generator when I am filling.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Do you go to a resturant and ask why their burgers cost more than McDonalds?

Definitely must stay out of bars! What's the markup on a shot of JD....about a thousand percent. Greedy bar tenders and their "overpriced" booze. No happy hour for me. I'll order my whiskey off the internet and stay home and drink.

 

[TorontoDive]

Do you go to a resturant and ask why their burgers cost more than McDonalds?

That's comparing apples to oranges, or more like ground beef to ground mystery meat :14: I've always wondered why Big Macs had crunchy bits in the "meat"!

 

[DallasNewbie]

Well... I'm no expert in economics...or the law...but I'm pretty sure that what Azza mentioned is not price fixing or illegal...here or in Oz. On the surface it sounds like it , but I don't think it is.

That's exactly what price fixing is. And you don't have to be a legal expert, but you damn sure better know the laws that relate to your business.

Quite awhile back I set up a DIRf...got it scheduled with MHK...got my shop to host it...yada, yada, yada. EVERYBODY was IN. All were so excited to be doing this. They were definites...well right up to the part where they had to pay. Then I got all kind of flak over the cost...the typical DIRf cost, BTW...nothing extravagant. I learned many lessons during that fiasco.

How did you have confirmed students if you hadn't collected the money yet, and they didn't even know the price? You have no one to blame for that one but yourself. And since DIRf certainly isn't available on the Internet, you've just demonstrated your ability to screw yourself out of business without any competition whatsoever.

How much are golf lessons an hour? How about sky diving or tennis? Pretty wierd that scuba is so cheap, huh?

Nice rhetoric, but I've taken golf and skydiving lessons, and all were cheaper than my OW class. And I didn't buy $4,000 worth of equipment from the golf or skydiving instructor, either.

Ineffective, inefficient, stubborn bussinesses that refuse to adapt to changing market conditions should and will go out of business. This is a good thing, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, and there's no reason to take artificial steps to prevent it. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.

Bottom line, the Internet will not kill all LDS's, but it will kill some, and it might kill yours. But that's only preventable by you.

Death of the LDS predicted, film at 11.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

That's exactly what price fixing is.

Actually, it's a lot more complicated than a wikipedia definition. You may be right...but I don't think so. Until we have someone more learned on this topic than you or I chime in, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And you don't have to be a legal expert, but you damn sure better know the laws that relate to your business.

It's not my business. I pretty much know everything that I need to know about it. Although, it would be interesting to know more.

How did you have confirmed students if you hadn't collected the money yet, and they didn't even know the price? You have no one to blame for that one but yourself. And since DIRf certainly isn't available on the Internet, you've just demonstrated your ability to screw yourself out of business without any competition whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure that you know absolutely nothing about this. Again, your personal attack is without any merit what so ever.

Yes, everyone knew the price. It was a bunch of guys from here, AAMOF. When it came down to it they just weren't willing to antee up and they also had very unreasonable expectations of the shop that had volunteered the use of their pool and classroom.

I didn't screw myself, thanks. Again, I don't own a dive shop...or have any monetary interests in the dive business. I'm a customer...just like you.

The class fell through and I was dissapointed by both the fellas here and the shop owner, BTW. But wierd as it is, we all started diving together and now I have a few more good friends. They're great guys.

Nice rhetoric, but I've taken golf and skydiving lessons, and all were cheaper than my OW class. And I didn't buy $4,000 worth of equipment from the golf or skydiving instructor, either.

That's not rhetoric. It's simple...compare the hourly rate for a scuba instructor to that of any of these other guys.

Ineffective, inefficient, stubborn bussinesses that refuse to adapt to changing market conditions should and will go out of business. This is a good thing, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, and there's no reason to take artificial steps to prevent it. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.

No one is suggesting artificial steps. Hey...we all look at shops in different ways. To some it's A LDS...to others it's THEIR LDS. While, it won't matter to some folks that a shop goes under, it will affect others more personally.

I don't understand why some of you appear to dislike the LDS so much. I don't understand all of the accusations of "over pricing" and I don't think that those accusations are fair. If you want to shop online, then shop online. I joined this discussion simply to suggest that folks should simply make informed decisions...whether they buy form a shop or online.

Bottom line, the Internet will not kill all LDS's, but it will kill some, and it might kill yours. But that's only preventable by you.

Death of the LDS predicted, film at 11.

Not me! Well...no more so than you...and the next guy and the next guy.