LDS fails to deliver OW portion of PADI rescue, says tough luck

[seriousdiver]

OK, well, I said I was done, but there's still this impression that if I couldn't get the OW dives on one specific date and time and the heck with the shop's schedule I'd throw a hissy fit, and the mistaken impression that on any date that the shop had a trip scheduled there was an instructor available for the rescue checkouts; in fact, there wasn't an instructor available on ANY of those trips, at least not that I was informed of. I could post the literally dozens of e-mails between myself, the other student, and the instructor demonstrating this, but why waste the bandwidth. I'll quote a couple of them here to give a flavor of the exchanges (these are all from the instructor):

You're making this way more complicated than it has to be.

Did the dive shop:
A) Offer checkout dive dates

B) Tell you that your dive rescue package included dives.

If the dive shop offered checkout dive dates:

Did they tell you that there were no available instructors on those dives?

Did you inquire about checkout date dives BEFORE you signed up for the course? If yes, did they give you dates that they do checkout dives and then cancel those dates without offering a backup date?

My contention is that the shop, having sold me a Rescue course, has a responsibility to deliver a rescue course. The fact that I have not paid for all incidental fees associated with some part of the course does not absolve them of that responsibility. If they had said "we have dates available" and give some reasonable number of dates, even one a month, for the next few months, and I had said "no, I can't make it" or "no, I'm not willing to pay the incidental fees", that would have absolved their responsibility, but they didn't offer, I asked and asked, and I never refused to make any payments for the sessions not offered.

Except there is a difference between the rescue course and the checkout dives, they aren't bundled together, at no point did you sign up for a bundled course, and it's made pretty clear that the checkout dives are separate.

It's really simple, what does your contract or receipt state? You can't say they have a responsibility if they legally don't, you can claim whatever you want to claim but if you're saying they legally broke their responsibility when they didn't you're being libelous.

I'm not sure why everyone is showing so much sympathy, when I couldn't make my LDS's dives I got a referral and moved on with life, whereas you seem to be holding a grudge because you can't make THEIR dates.

Unless you're saying they never posted dates on their site or offered you dates at all, in which case I'd love to hear from the dive shop and offer them the chance to rebuke that claim.

 

[SkimFisher]

Except there were/ and are dive dates scheduled.


If alls we're given are the OP's words and the dive shops words, I'm inclined to actually look at the schedule, which does confirm the dive shop's words.

You can take the OP's statements for what they're worth, in my experience, he's not going to admit when he's wrong because it would require a lot of backpedaling.

The thing is, he didn't pay for OW dives, therefore no contract was broken, he wasn't guaranteed a date, he paid for the classes without having anything in regards to the open water dives penned in writing; and then he flocks to the boards to gather sympathy by claiming they failed to deliver.

Saying he offered 4 weekends isn't reasonable given that they weren't consecutive weekends and I'm highly doubtful any dive shop would have been able to accommodate.

Every single dive shop I looked at offered their certifications on the last weekend of the month, every single dive shop I looked at had their schedule posted for MONTHS in advance just like the OP's dive shop.

It seems unreasonable to me to then say he gave them four weekends that they weren't doing dive certifications and then says THEY failed to deliver, they didn't fail to deliver because they couldn't deliver when HE wanted them to deliver.

Do you even know the guy?!? I've had the pleasure of diving with him and he definitely doesn't fit the mold a few of you are trying to force him into.

 

[seriousdiver]

Do you even know the guy?!? I've had the pleasure of diving with him and he definitely doesn't fit the mold a few of you are trying to force him into.

Nope, but from what I've read he's claiming a breach of contract(responsibility) when none exists and is creating a situation where he's committing libel.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Except there is a difference between the rescue course and the checkout dives, they aren't bundled together, at no point did you sign up for a bundled course, and it's made pretty clear that the checkout dives are separate.
. . .

I'm curious as to where it was "made pretty clear that the checkout dives are separate." I can't say I've read every word in this thread, but from what I recall, the shop said the checkout dive COST was not included in the cost of the classrooom portion. You sound like a lawyer, so I assume you know that one party doesn't necessarily have to pay for something in advance for the other party to have incurred an obligation to do something, such as, say, make a good faith effort to help the student complete the checkout dives (which may or may not have happened in this case). As you know, payment in advance isn't the only factor that determines who's obligated to do what.

There's this whole complication of "signing up." It seems unclear what a student "signs up" for, when the course has two required parts, even though at the time he signs up he may pay for only one of them. It's possible that the contract would be interpreted as signing up for the whole course, which may not obligate the shop to take him out on a boat and give him his checkout dives, but it may obligate the shop to do something toward that end. Who knows. The scenario is not black and white, that's my only point.

 

[gcarter]

You're making this way more complicated than it has to be.

Did the dive shop:
A) Offer checkout dive dates

B) Tell you that your dive rescue package included dives.

If the dive shop offered checkout dive dates:

Did they tell you that there were no available instructors on those dives?

Did you inquire about checkout date dives BEFORE you signed up for the course? If yes, did they give you dates that they do checkout dives and then cancel those dates without offering a backup date?


Except there is a difference between the rescue course and the checkout dives, they aren't bundled together, at no point did you sign up for a bundled course, and it's made pretty clear that the checkout dives are separate.

It's really simple, what does your contract or receipt state? You can't say they have a responsibility if they legally don't, you can claim whatever you want to claim but if you're saying they legally broke their responsibility when they didn't you're being libelous.

I'm not sure why everyone is showing so much sympathy, when I couldn't make my LDS's dives I got a referral and moved on with life, whereas you seem to be holding a grudge because you can't make THEIR dates.

Unless you're saying they never posted dates on their site or offered you dates at all, in which case I'd love to hear from the dive shop and offer them the chance to rebuke that claim.

You either have reading comprehension issues or are pursuing an agenda of some sort. The OP was not offered any dates despite repeated requests.

 

[lv2dive]

Hi everyone,
The diver did NOT pay the $40 instructor fee. That is due upon payment for the trip. He did not put down a deposit for the trip or pay for the instructor's fee.

I understand not including the trip costs because they are an unknown. But the instructor fee is known. I simply don't understand why the instructor fee for the checkout dives isn't included in the class costs. It's not like Rescue is OW where people go to the Caribbean and do checkout dives?!?!..

 

[SkimFisher]

Why? It's not like he paid for the dives.

If they allowed him to pay for the dives and sign up knowing that he couldn't make the dives then they bought the responsibility.

He signed up for a class KNOWING that the dates didn't fit his schedule, he assumed responsibility for finding someone to do the open water portion of the class.

Which is more realistic, the dive shops knowing what the student's schedule is like or the student knowing what the dive shop's schedule is like?

I did my pool work and classwork with my LDS, I knew I couldn't make their certification weekend, does that mean they were obligated to set up a dive just for me since I couldn't make the next two months worth of scheduling they had done?

I'm sorry, but I knew full well that my schedule wouldn't mesh well with my LDS, that doesn't put them on the hook for doing the checkout dives on MY schedule.

The OP started this thread with the intention of essentially badmouthing the dive shop because they wouldn't change their schedule to meet his demands, notice how he claims they don't post their schedule, yet on their website the calendar feature is extremely obvious and is one of the main components of their site.

Except there were/ and are dive dates scheduled.


If alls we're given are the OP's words and the dive shops words, I'm inclined to actually look at the schedule, which does confirm the dive shop's words.

You can take the OP's statements for what they're worth, in my experience, he's not going to admit when he's wrong because it would require a lot of backpedaling.

The thing is, he didn't pay for OW dives, therefore no contract was broken, he wasn't guaranteed a date, he paid for the classes without having anything in regards to the open water dives penned in writing; and then he flocks to the boards to gather sympathy by claiming they failed to deliver.

Saying he offered 4 weekends isn't reasonable given that they weren't consecutive weekends and I'm highly doubtful any dive shop would have been able to accommodate.

Every single dive shop I looked at offered their certifications on the last weekend of the month, every single dive shop I looked at had their schedule posted for MONTHS in advance just like the OP's dive shop.

It seems unreasonable to me to then say he gave them four weekends that they weren't doing dive certifications and then says THEY failed to deliver, they didn't fail to deliver because they couldn't deliver when HE wanted them to deliver.

You're making this way more complicated than it has to be.

Did the dive shop:
A) Offer checkout dive dates

B) Tell you that your dive rescue package included dives.

If the dive shop offered checkout dive dates:

Did they tell you that there were no available instructors on those dives?

Did you inquire about checkout date dives BEFORE you signed up for the course? If yes, did they give you dates that they do checkout dives and then cancel those dates without offering a backup date?


Except there is a difference between the rescue course and the checkout dives, they aren't bundled together, at no point did you sign up for a bundled course, and it's made pretty clear that the checkout dives are separate.

It's really simple, what does your contract or receipt state? You can't say they have a responsibility if they legally don't, you can claim whatever you want to claim but if you're saying they legally broke their responsibility when they didn't you're being libelous.

I'm not sure why everyone is showing so much sympathy, when I couldn't make my LDS's dives I got a referral and moved on with life, whereas you seem to be holding a grudge because you can't make THEIR dates.

Unless you're saying they never posted dates on their site or offered you dates at all, in which case I'd love to hear from the dive shop and offer them the chance to rebuke that claim.

Nope, but from what I've read he's claiming a breach of contract(responsibility) when none exists and is creating a situation where he's committing libel.

Um, what?

Checkout dives are inherent. They are part of the class. The dive fee is like a ticket to Disney World, it only gets you on the boat or through the door. Most often you are not paying the shop, but rather the venue. You do understand this, right? A course fee and a dive fee have nothing to do with one another. If the shop chooses to pad their dive fee to squeeze a little more out of the customer then so be it, but one has nothing to do with the other.

---------- Post Merged at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:25 PM ----------

You either have reading comprehension issues or are pursuing an agenda of some sort. The OP was not offered any dates despite repeated requests.

+20,000

 

[seriousdiver]

Checkout dives are inherent. They are part of the class. The dive fee is like a ticket to Disney World, it only gets you on the boat or through the door. Most often you are not paying the shop, but rather the venue. You do understand this, right? A course fee and a dive fee have nothing to do with one another. If the shop chooses to pad their dive fee to squeeze a little more out of the customer then so be it, but one has nothing to do with the other.

None of the dive shops I've been to have the checkout dives as being part of the class, they're all separate fees and also are stated as being separate. Checkout dives aren't inherent, especially in a landlocked region or if you can't make THEIR schedule, it's better to keep the fees separate and have referral forms if they can't make the scheduled dives.

At the end of the day I'd like to hear from the scuba shop because obviously we have conflicting information if he was never offered dates to complete the checkout dives even if he couldn't make them according to him yet the dive shop says they offered him dates.

At the end of the day the beauty of the Scuba classes are that you can complete the pool work and classwork with one instructor and finish it with someone else, a breach of contract in this case would have been if the scuba store would have refused to give a referral form.

I have nothing to gain from this, I just don't like jumping on a bandwagon against a store just because someone feels they've been victimized when they haven't.

 

[SkimFisher]

[h=3]in·her·ent/inˈhi(&#601rənt/
[/h]

Adjective:

Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: "inherent dangers". Vested in (someone) as a right or privilege: "the president's inherent power".

So, checkout dives are not an essential part of a course that requires them in order to pass? How do you expect to get certified without them? This is very basic logic. Regardless of whether they are paid for, scheduled, included - whatever other semantics you want to throw at it - getting the student in the water is just as much part of the class as the classroom session.

I've never had to jump through hoops to get dives scheduled or squabbled over what's "included" in a class. That's from OW to Cave to Trimix and all the classes I've taken in between, all with multiple shops and instructors.

 

[Colliam7]

The OP was not offered any dates despite repeated requests.

Is this accurate? I may be misinterpreting the second post from the shop, but it seems that the OP was offered (or at least made aware of) alternate dates. In fairness to the OP, it does appear that there was a considerable delay in that being communicated, possibly because of the situation with the initial instructor.

We have 2 future PADI rescue diver weekend trips scheduled-one in October and one in November. This diver is free to join either one of those trips, but we have had those scheduled for a while, and he sent us 4 other weekends that were good for him, which we cannot provide an instructor for.

Maybe there has been a misunderstanding here, but it seems like there are other dates available. The shop has only said that the dates the OP and the second student proposed don't work for them. That seems fair - every shop cannot accomodate every request..

The whole reason we suggested that he contact the instructor directly to begin with was that he stated he would like to finish the certification with that instructor OR our shop. since the shop can't meet those dates, and we can't schedule for that instructor since he's not on the staff, it seems most logical that he just contact the instructor directly.

Perhaps, part of the problem is that the shop even offered the suggestion of the OP continuing to work with the initial instructor.

Checkout dives are inherent. They are part of the class.

None of the dive shops I've been to have the checkout dives as being part of the class, they're all separate fees and also are stated as being separate.

Interesting, and divergent, poiints of view. Before this thread, I would not have imagined a PADI Rescue Diver course being offered in pieces - 1) academics, and a pool session for the Self-Rescue portion (and presumably practice on the Rescue Exercises), followed by 2) OW dives to complete the ten Rescue Exercises and the two Scenarios. In my experience, that is by far the less common situation, and having the OW dives as part of the overall Rescue class is a reasonable expectation (which is what I think the OP is saying). It doesn't appear that he is challening the fees - he got what he paid $260 for, at least according to what was posted as being on the shop website.

If there are OW dives to complete the program available through the shop in October and November (as posted by the shop), he can either sign up for those if one / both are convenient, or if there is too much history / bad blood as a result of the situation, or the dates just don't work, he can find another instructor / shop to work with to complete the OW dives.