LDS fails to deliver OW portion of PADI rescue, says tough luck

[Colliam7]

My contention is that the shop sold me an opportunity to receive a Rescue certification. There were some co-requisites clearly stated, i.e. O2, first aid, CPR, that were not included in the training. It was also clearly stated that the trip costs for the OW portion of the course were not included. However, I was not given the opportunity to complete the OW portion through the shop, and this seems to me a clear failure on the part of the shop to deliver the opportunity to earn Rescue certification. . . . If the shop said from the beginning clearly "we offer only the classroom and pool pool portion of the class; you will have to obtain the OW portion somewhere else" then we would have no issue. That isn't what happened. . . . I consider that a breach of contract; the shop failing to provide the opportunity to earn Rescue certification.

Diver paid in full for materials and classwork for PADI rescue diver course. He successfully completed those courses. In our course description on our website, it clearly stated that diver would be responsible for Open Water dives not included in the price. His total fee was approximately $267.50, as he stated. For that fee he received class session, pool session, and his PADI rescue diver materials. Our pricing is competitive if not equal with all other shops in the area that offer a similar course with similar structure. . . . Our fee for the lake pleasant trip with 4 dives, tanks and weights, is $200.00 not including lodging. We charge $10 additional instructor fee per dive for ANY checkout dives that qualify for any type of certification . . .

Reading this, my most vivid impression is that people pay $467.50 to complete PADI Rescue Diver certification through Planet Scuba in Tuscon. While I can appreciate the perhaps limited availability of a site for the open water portion, this certainly seems 'healthy' - I first said 'exhorbitant', but I don't know the Tuscon market. It may be that a $467 fee is what the market bears in Tuscon, and my hat is off to any shop that can charge that and have customers for a Rescue class. (we charge $254 for the entire course, including Rescue Diver crewpack, and that includes everything EXCEPT two $15/day admission fees to the local quarry.)

We HAVE FULFILLED all obligations to him with regard to what he paid for, what we promised to deliver for that price, and what is expected in the course.

Obviously, one of the challenges, for all of us not involved in the direct discussions between Planet Scuba and the OP, is knowing what was said, in addition to reading what is on the website. (I tried to access the information on the website and could not get to the section for 'Continued Education', so I have to go on what was posted by Hawkwood about the description of the Rescue Diver course on the site.) So, reading the two posts, from the OP and from Planet Scuba, raises images of a 'he said, she said' scenario in divorce court.

The disagreement seems to hinge on the IMPLIED obligation of the shop to find a way to make the open water portion work for the student / OP. Since there was not a schedule set up in advance, the shop would appear to be on somewhat shakey ground to suggest that the problem is with the student's availability. And, we don't know how reluctant the student was to work with the 'new instructor', which is also suggested in Planet Scuba's response.

But, based on the information provided, if the OP originally paid $260, and completed the academic sessions, and the two pool sessions (presumably completing some / all of the 10 Exercises, but not the OW scenarios), then he received what was paid for, and I would have to agree with the response from the shop representative. I know it is not at all convenient for the OP, and I think the way the shop organizes the course is poor business practice. But, if the information on the website is accurately portrayed, then he got what he paid for. Unless someone in the shop explicitly stated that the shop would guarantee to make certain that he would be able to complete the OW portion through the shop (that is not what the website appears to say), I don't see much of a 'case' here.

Find another instructor to complete the OW portion and move on.

 

[Laurie S.]

If he paid $467.50 for the course, then that should include the open water portion. I did my SSI course in February 2010 through another shop and remember paying something in the $200 range for the course. The trip to San Carlos was extra, which probably cost about $119 or so for the two-tank dive and about $125 for the hotel room for two nights.

I would imagine it's less expensive to do the open water work at Lake Pleasant, but you couldn't pay me to go dive there.

 

[PlanetScuba Tucson]

Hi everyone,
The diver did NOT pay the $40 instructor fee. That is due upon payment for the trip. He did not put down a deposit for the trip or pay for the instructor's fee.
We have 2 future PADI rescue diver weekend trips scheduled-one in October and one in November. This diver is free to join either one of those trips, but we have had those scheduled for a while, and he sent us 4 other weekends that were good for him, which we cannot provide an instructor for. The whole reason we suggested that he contact the instructor directly to begin with was that he stated he would like to finish the certification with that instructor OR our shop. since the shop can't meet those dates, and we can't schedule for that instructor since he's not on the staff, it seems most logical that he just contact the instructor directly.
Sincerely,
Chris and Danya Goodwill

 

[Laurie S.]

That makes sense. Seems to me he needs to be more open about getting another instructor. There are a number of them out there.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

The diver did NOT pay the $40 instructor fee. That is due upon payment for the trip.

Well that issue is now clarified. I really can't see any "breach of contract" claim, as he has received all the services he has paid for.

 

[USFpsychDiver]

Well, I'm done here, stated the facts as I see them, some see my point, some see the shop's. I'm comfortable with my stance. I do feel taken advantage of by the shop, but my recourse is simply not to give them my business. I recently moved to Tucson from Tampa and this class was part of my checking out the three dive shops in Tucson for quality of service (took a trip with another, and had my regs serviced by the 3rd). I don't know which is my favorite, but I know which is my least favorite. And the shop has lost at least a medium-dollar customer, certainly one who spends consistently. I'm writing this from cave country in Florida where I'm in the middle of a 4 day cave diving trip. Just gave $400 to Dive Outpost up here for products and services, a small part of the weekend's overall expenditures (and a fine shop Dive Outpost is, as are all the cave diving focused shops up here, Cave Excursions, Cave Country Dive Shop, Amigos, Cave Adventures, to name a few; I recommend any of them to cave divers coming to Florida, but then cave divers coming to Florida already know about them, because the have strong, stable reputations). I do both rec and tech diving, and enjoy them both. That means I do a lot of diving and have a lot of gear. The shops up here in cave country treat their customers with dignity and respect (e.g. some work on the honor system; I recently rented two sets of HP100 double tanks with bands and manifolds from a shop with no one manning the shop, just by signing for them on a computer by the door -- that's around $2k worth of gear I walked out of the place with on the honor system; that's how that particular shop runs -- keeps personnel costs down). My daughter dives (recently took her on a 5-day trip to Key Largo to dive and get her AOW cert from Rainbow Reef, not my favorite operation -- a little 'cattle boat' like, but they had a great deal on lodging, dives, and training -- OW dives included, and we got in some great dives). My wife wants to start diving so we can have another thing to do together on vacations. So whether they are right or wrong, the dive shop did not work hard to make themselves a satisfied customer here (and they lost an instructor too, for some reason unknown to me, apparently having to do with payment -- that's where this $40 number came from; I believe the instructor claims he's never been paid for teaching the class, but this is not something I have any firsthand knowledge of). Of course Planet Scuba would never have gotten any of the tech money anyway (none of the Tucson shops services tech divers; not enough of them around), but I still need gear and service and trips and training. So, $260 in pocket, and either they are shed of a grumpy, whiny, hard-to-please bad customer, or they lost a potential regular customer who expects to be treated in an honest and straightforward manner, with products and services clearly labeled with what is and is not included and all associated costs clearly stated up front, and with staff that works hard to deliver services in a timely manner. That is what I consider good business practice, alas an increasingly difficult thing to find in this Walmart age.

Peacock Springs today; Ginnie tomorrow -- woo hoo!

 

[OldNSalty]

Interesting thread-learned a lot. You can be a cave diver with less then 100 dives. I would have thought 50 to 100 would be the point where you start to think about cave diving. Tuscon has 3 dive shops...I would have quessed zero...maybe 1...

 

[Lorenzoid]

I think a lesson for dive ops might be that it can be considered ambiguous under contract law to simply state that "X is not included in this price" when what you really meant was "X is a separate service from Y that we aren't agreeing at this time to provide." I realize that wording sounds a bit jarring, but that's the kind of thing contract law wants to see. As I said before, if the wording says no more than that there are two different payments involved, it can be considered ambiguous as to whether that means there are two separate and independent obligations. That said, it's certainly possible that there are quirks of AZ contract law I'm not aware of.

Too bad the OP and shop couldn't work it out. It sounds like it came down to a scheduling conflict, and both parties tried in good faith to make their schedules work. Who knows. The OP sounds like an experienced diver (cave diving? tec?) and is moving on from Rescue in a big way.

 

[jar546]

I offered 4 weekends that I am available in Sept. and Oct. I have regularly provided my available schedule to the instructor, previously offering 3 weekends in August and three in July. I am not available every weekend. That is 10 possible times across four months. I believe this constitutes a good faith effort on my part to schedule the OW sessions. Planet Scuba's response here seems disingenuous to me, to suggest that the reason they have not schedule the OW sessions is due to my limited availability; I have lots of availability, especially if that can be scheduled ahead. Planet Scuba has not once contacted me stating any availability of OW rescue sessions; I have contacted the instructor repeatedly while he was associated with Planet Scuba providing him with my availability over the upcoming 2 month periods. Never once has either the instructor or Planet Scuba contacted me stating when OW sessions would be available. I stated in my e-mail to Planet Scuba after two months of failure to schedule with the instructor that I wished them to assist in the scheduling. That's when they told me the instructor wasn't still working with them and I should work it out with him. I then provided them with the 4 weekends I was available in Sept. and Oct. and told them that if they could not schedule using those time that I would consider the failure to successfully schedule the OW sessions over 4 months of options evidence that they were unable to deliver the OW sessions. More than four months between classroom and pool and OW is unreasonable in my estimation. It is not like I'm never available; as I said in my initial post, I am generally available one weekend out of two, and am quite flexible given several weeks advanced notice, and four months is plenty of time for two parties to come to a mutually agreeable time if both parties are interested. Planet Scuba has shown no evidence of said interest. It is this continued disingenuousness on the part of Planet Scuba, first suggesting that they sold me only part of a course, not the whole course, now that the reason for scheduling failure is due to my lack of availability, that I think prospective customers should be aware of.

Individuals can do their own independent investigations of the business; for all I know I'm the only one who's every complained about them in a sea of satisfied customers; I honestly don't know, I haven't looked. I can state that I have taken OW, AOW, Nitrox, Cavern, and Cave I, OW, AOW, and Nitrox from one shop with 2 different instructors, and Cavern and Cave from an independent instructor, and have been 100% satisfied with each of those classes, each of which contained at least classroom and OW portions (well, the AOW was a little weak on skill building, mostly just supervised experience, but the dives were fun), so I have some experience in taking dive classes. The above are facts as I know them. My opinion is that Planet Scuba either made a cost/benefit business decision or were inept in their class management, and the Rescue students got the short end of the stick.

The bold and red highlights above are where I do take issue with the shop. Since we are already past July and August and he showed availability for 6 weekends in that 2 month period, I see an issue with the shop. The instructor in question is not longer there and they accepted the student's money for services to be rendered. Not all of the services were rendered and a reasonable effort was put forth by the student. Shame on the shop and instructor for not having solidified dates scheduled. This is a great way to qualify your students as they won't sign up for classes they are not available for.

This is another case of over-promise and under-deliver by a middle man. There needs to be a backup plan for situations like this. I firmly believe this is a legitimate gripe by the student. It would have been easier for the shop to take care of this and learn from it rather than have it spread over the internet. If one of my students gave me 6 weekends in a 2 month period and I was not available, I would feel like I was not meeting my obligation.

 

[Laurie S.]

Interesting thread-learned a lot. You can be a cave diver with less then 100 dives. I would have thought 50 to 100 would be the point where you start to think about cave diving. Tuscon has 3 dive shops...I would have quessed zero...maybe 1...

First of all, it is "Tucson" not "Tuscon" and it is pronounced "Tu-son" not "Tus-con." Originally, the "c" was pronounced, as the name evolved from a O'odham word but that sound isn't in the Spanish language and so we have the present-day pronounciation. Sorry, sore point for me.

Tucson is a six-hour drive from some of the best diving in the world. The Sea of Cortez is second in the world for the number of species that can be found there. Until about two years ago, there were two dive shops here, one SSI and one PADI. I think there was another one at one time, too, but I don't think it's in business anymore. Until this thread appeared, I thought that Planet Scuba also was an SSI shop since it's owned by the former manager of the SSI shop and he was one of my SSI instructors when I first was certified. He's a good guy.

I actually had three different instructors for OW and I think I benefitted from that. Due to a schedule conflict, I had two different ones for the classroom (Chris was one of them) and yet another for the pool sessions. None of them were there for the open water portion in San Carlos.

It seems to me that there are problems on both sides that has resulted in a failure to complete the course. The OP mentions he was available in July. I was in San Carlos in July and know that a group from Planet Scuba was there (along with the other dive shops). Why couldn't the training have been done then? I would suggest to the OP that he move on to another instructor and finish the course. There are many good PADI instructors that are available to him. Like I said earlier in this thread, I can hook him up with a Master Instructor with 39 years experience.