LBTS Diver Death

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Mike I read your site. Honestly you have some good points but your attitude comes across a bit pompous. You are stretching your experience and knowledge beyond what you know and do some finger pointing at others where it is not justified.

"Mike is an advanced open water certified diver with over 100 dives to his credit since 2004 when he first certified."

I am a Rec diver and have been for some 27 odd years. I enjoy reef diving, shore diving and some of the wrecks. I pretty much dive a rec rig and do not DIR, GUE, HOG or sport a long hose. I do not dive the rule of thirds. This does not make a diver less "safe" diving shore or shallow reef dives.

Your perspective and the way you write is giving everyone else a bad opinion on you. I dive with many highly skilled and very experienced tech divers. They do not see me as a wanna be stroke because I do not rig my gear "just like them".

Just because you read DIR is the only way or somewhere a teaspoon of water can drown you does not make it fact. I do not believe a teaspoon of water can kill you. I would not swallow that theory unless I saw it with my own two eyes.

Just saying...
 
Well I see this is going to hell in a handbasket quick since I asked for it to be moved here. While there are some valid points made and some interesting observations what I was hoping to see(I know, I know it's the net) was to use what WE DO KNOW to offer some observations regarding the lessons that COULD be passed on to newer or even experienced divers.

Again we know from the articles that she was
1."found floating by other divers" not her buddy.
2. her bc was not full of air
3. there was a buddy seperation
4. she was 58 years old
5. she was recently certified

If we we to quickly look at these things we could say that there was a breakdown in communication. If not they would have been together. Their buddy skills were sorely lacking. Something happened that precluded her filling her bc- what COULD cause that? Ran out of air, medical issue made her unable to inflate it, defective inflator, or defective reg altogether. Her age but lets exclude that for now as we see that as alot of us get older it may slow us a bit but sometimes that's a good thing as we get more cautious and pay more attention to detail.

Recent certification could have played a very big part in this whole incident if they were not prepared for the condtions they were diving in, their swimming skills were not developed enough, they were not familiar enough with the gear they were using( we don;t know of it was theirs or rental), and for some reason they were not sufficiently versed in maintaining constant contact with each other.

This is what I am using this whole thing for in the class I am teaching now.
1. Drive home the importance of proper training. Sufficient time spent in the pool and classroom emphasizing buddy skills, communication, management of air supply, and knowing your limitations.
2. Instill the importance of knowing and checking your equipment- don't trust that your buddy, the shop, the resort, the instructor, etc has done it.
3. Communication between divers who are going to dive together is crucial at any level. I do dive solo, When with a buddy we plan and stick to the plan. Other wise IMO it's better to dive alone. That way I know I'm the one who will need to save my ass if something goes wrong and plan for that. New divers should never dive alone.
4. Using the rule of thirds as beginning divers makes sense. If it shortens the dives so what? Better to have a shorter safe dive than one that kills somebody. You can adjust this as you gain experience and your gas consumption gets better. My advice to my new students if you start with 3000 psi you DO NOT USE that as the starting pressure. I'm advising them to use the 300-500 psi in the tank as a starting point. Subtract 300-500 psi from 3000 leaving them with 2500-2700 and use that as their starting point. Descend dive till you hit 2100 or so, turn the dive, you hit the rope or ladder at 1200 and begin your ascent OR if you are comfortable with it spend a few minutes at the mooring or in the shallows and do your safety stop at 15 feet for 3 minutes. You are back on board with plenty of air. 800 or so min. What is wrong with that? THey are new, there will be many more dives in the future.
5. Constantly monitor yours and your buddy's air. Keep a dialogue going the whole time. Ask if they are ok, point out things to each other, stay within arms reach at all times, carry a slate to make notes and clearly state intentions, ask questions.
6. The slowest person is who sets the pace of the dive. Period-end of discussion.
7. In ascent maintain eye contact as much as possible. You don't need to be mask to mask but facing each other if going up a line or looking at each other every few seconds if doing a horizantal swimming ascent to shore. Never let your buddy get out of your sight. For new divers at any time do not let this happen. I will physically reposition buddy's if I see them getting too far apart or not in proper position.
8 Stay away from quickie courses where not enough time is spent making sure that all of this is covered in depth. Don;t have the time for that or the instructor says it's not necessary. Don't take up diving or find another instructor.

Finally, I ran into a friend last night who I used to dive with early on. He;s going through DM now and is not happy with some of what he's seeing. Short courses, no swimming skills being tested(snorkeling being substitutes) or not as thoroughly as he'd like, and students being allowed to do the float/tread in a wetsuit with no weights because they are "too lean" to do it otherwise. I am going to have to do some more talking with him because he said some other things that I find hard to believe but if true are very scary as to the route dive training is taking. My belief is that if this trend continues more incidents like this are going to be the result. So go ahead, put profit before safety, turn out large numbers of divers ill suited for the sport in the hopes they'll find out they need more basic stuff and come back to spend money getting what they should have gotten in OW. Me, I'll take my time and turn out people who I'd let dive with any of my loved ones and will know when it's best to not dive.

MY final analysis based on what WE DO KNOW is that there could have been a very different outcome to this story, in fact it may not have even happened, if they had been properly trained and paid attention to all that training. Breakdowns like this don't just happen with new divers. They begin during class and unless addressed can have tragic results. I spend enough time with my people to really know when they are not getting something, don't quite understand it, or see them developing a bad habit and have time to correct it. And how many of us know that one of the easiest buddy pairs to keep together are spouses. Unless the hubby is a hot dog and then we do things to get his ego in check. I'll even go so far as to tell the wife it may be better to dive with a DM than a hubby who's an ass.

Next?
 
Excellent summary! Enough said.
 
Well I see this is going to hell in a handbasket quick since I asked for it to be moved here. While there are some valid points made and some interesting observations what I was hoping to see(I know, I know it's the net) was to use what WE DO KNOW to offer some observations regarding the lessons that COULD be passed on to newer or even experienced divers.

Again we know from the articles that she was
1."found floating by other divers" not her buddy.
2. her bc was not full of air
3. there was a buddy seperation
4. she was 58 years old
5. she was recently certified

If we we to quickly look at these things we could say that there was a breakdown in communication. If not they would have been together. Their buddy skills were sorely lacking. Something happened that precluded her filling her bc- what COULD cause that? Ran out of air, medical issue made her unable to inflate it, defective inflator, or defective reg altogether. Her age but lets exclude that for now as we see that as alot of us get older it may slow us a bit but sometimes that's a good thing as we get more cautious and pay more attention to detail.

Recent certification could have played a very big part in this whole incident if they were not prepared for the condtions they were diving in, their swimming skills were not developed enough, they were not familiar enough with the gear they were using( we don;t know of it was theirs or rental), and for some reason they were not sufficiently versed in maintaining constant contact with each other.

This is what I am using this whole thing for in the class I am teaching now.
1. Drive home the importance of proper training. Sufficient time spent in the pool and classroom emphasizing buddy skills, communication, management of air supply, and knowing your limitations.
2. Instill the importance of knowing and checking your equipment- don't trust that your buddy, the shop, the resort, the instructor, etc has done it.
3. Communication between divers who are going to dive together is crucial at any level. I do dive solo, When with a buddy we plan and stick to the plan. Other wise IMO it's better to dive alone. That way I know I'm the one who will need to save my ass if something goes wrong and plan for that. New divers should never dive alone.
4. Using the rule of thirds as beginning divers makes sense. If it shortens the dives so what? Better to have a shorter safe dive than one that kills somebody. You can adjust this as you gain experience and your gas consumption gets better. My advice to my new students if you start with 3000 psi you DO NOT USE that as the starting pressure. I'm advising them to use the 300-500 psi in the tank as a starting point. Subtract 300-500 psi from 3000 leaving them with 2500-2700 and use that as their starting point. Descend dive till you hit 2100 or so, turn the dive, you hit the rope or ladder at 1200 and begin your ascent OR if you are comfortable with it spend a few minutes at the mooring or in the shallows and do your safety stop at 15 feet for 3 minutes. You are back on board with plenty of air. 800 or so min. What is wrong with that? THey are new, there will be many more dives in the future.
5. Constantly monitor yours and your buddy's air. Keep a dialogue going the whole time. Ask if they are ok, point out things to each other, stay within arms reach at all times, carry a slate to make notes and clearly state intentions, ask questions.
6. The slowest person is who sets the pace of the dive. Period-end of discussion.
7. In ascent maintain eye contact as much as possible. You don't need to be mask to mask but facing each other if going up a line or looking at each other every few seconds if doing a horizantal swimming ascent to shore. Never let your buddy get out of your sight. For new divers at any time do not let this happen. I will physically reposition buddy's if I see them getting too far apart or not in proper position.
8 Stay away from quickie courses where not enough time is spent making sure that all of this is covered in depth. Don;t have the time for that or the instructor says it's not necessary. Don't take up diving or find another instructor.

Finally, I ran into a friend last night who I used to dive with early on. He;s going through DM now and is not happy with some of what he's seeing. Short courses, no swimming skills being tested(snorkeling being substitutes) or not as thoroughly as he'd like, and students being allowed to do the float/tread in a wetsuit with no weights because they are "too lean" to do it otherwise. I am going to have to do some more talking with him because he said some other things that I find hard to believe but if true are very scary as to the route dive training is taking. My belief is that if this trend continues more incidents like this are going to be the result. So go ahead, put profit before safety, turn out large numbers of divers ill suited for the sport in the hopes they'll find out they need more basic stuff and come back to spend money getting what they should have gotten in OW. Me, I'll take my time and turn out people who I'd let dive with any of my loved ones and will know when it's best to not dive.

MY final analysis based on what WE DO KNOW is that there could have been a very different outcome to this story, in fact it may not have even happened, if they had been properly trained and paid attention to all that training. Breakdowns like this don't just happen with new divers. They begin during class and unless addressed can have tragic results. I spend enough time with my people to really know when they are not getting something, don't quite understand it, or see them developing a bad habit and have time to correct it. And how many of us know that one of the easiest buddy pairs to keep together are spouses. Unless the hubby is a hot dog and then we do things to get his ego in check. I'll even go so far as to tell the wife it may be better to dive with a DM than a hubby who's an ass.

Next?

I agree for the most part with everything you said, and applaud you for taking the correct approach to instruction. However, it does irritate me when I hear people say things such as "The direction SCUBA training is going in...". Whatever standards an agency has for training should be viewed by any responsible instructor as just minimums. I'm not aware of any agency that forbids an instructor from going above and beyond the base course. The requirements are that, at a minimum, their curriculum is followed as far as I know. Let's use you for an example and assume that tomorrow your certifying agency decided that being able to swim is not a requirement for entering a SCUBA class. They also decide that only one Pool session and One Open Water session are required for the course. And, the Open Water session only needs to be to a depth of 20 feet and both the Pool and OW can be done in the same day, making certification possible in a one day course. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating... Is any of that going to change how you teach? Are you going to dumb your training down to that level just because you can? Unfortunately, some instructors would, and that is the one part of this argument I do agree with, if standards across the board were higher it would leave less discretion to the Instructor. But, then again, let's be realistic. An Instructor can put down anything they choose to on the certifying paperwork for a new diver and submit it. The agency has to trust the validity of the info, until or unless they are given reason not to. An instructor can pencil whip anything they want and likely go undiscovered for quite awhile if not forever. What I'm saying is, regardless of any formal standards, it always comes down to the Instructor. Either an Instructor cares, is responsible, and takes ownership for the quality of diver they cert or they don't. No standards, regulations, or anything else is going to change that. Thankfully, I feel the majority of Instructors are responsible and the crappy one's are in the minority. Look at the overall safety record of diving. It's pretty darn impressive. The reality of diving is that you are entering an environment that a human being is not designed to live in and staying there for quite awhile. For as many times as people do that, the % of incidents is incredibly low in my view. And, if we can solve the dilemma of a teaspoon of water drowning people it will be even safer! :D
 
Older divers die while diving, older snow shovelers die while shoveling snow, older couch potatos die in their favorite chair and older golfers die on the golf course. When you get older your chance of dying while your doing something you enjoy increases. Was her death preventable-maybe.

My best friend was 56, his wife left him watching TV. When she woke up the next morning he was dead of a heart attack on the floor of the bedroom. He didn't even have a chance to wake her. He'd had a physical two months before. I'm glad it didn't happen while he was diving. The speculators would have come out like vultures.
 
Sad loss.

Stupid discussion.
 
Are there any follow ups or investigation on what caused the accidental death? I wonder if it was equipment malfunction, panic, etc. that put her into a situation that she could not recover from.
 
Pretty off handed dismissal given your recent Cozumel experiences Don.
 
edit: Your thread was first but there is another lengthy thread on this sad accident.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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