LBTS Diver Death

[DennisS]

edit: Your thread was first but there is another lengthy thread on this sad accident.

yup, it's the one that casts aspersions on everyone from her buddy to PADI

 

[Walter]

Whatever standards an agency has for training should be viewed by any responsible instructor as just minimums.

No argument there.

I'm not aware of any agency that forbids an instructor from going above and beyond the base course.

Depends on exactly what you mean. Some agencies allow instructors to add requirements, others allow instructors to teach additional material, but the instructor cannot make the extra material a requirement. Without the ability to require the extra material, it can be pretty much useless. There are some instructors who tell me they can't even add unrequired extra material if it is "beyond the scope of the class."

Let's use you for an example and assume that tomorrow your certifying agency decided that being able to swim is not a requirement for entering a SCUBA class. They also decide that only one Pool session and One Open Water session are required for the course. And, the Open Water session only needs to be to a depth of 20 feet and both the Pool and OW can be done in the same day, making certification possible in a one day course. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating... Is any of that going to change how you teach?

While I can't answer for Jim, I suspect his answer would be pretty similar to mine. Our agency is one that prides itself on high standards, so your hypothetical situation is not one that would be happening. If it were to happen, I would stop certifying through them. I would not associate myself with an agency that has low standards. Birds of a feather...

But, then again, let's be realistic. An Instructor can put down anything they choose to on the certifying paperwork for a new diver and submit it. The agency has to trust the validity of the info, until or unless they are given reason not to. An instructor can pencil whip anything they want and likely go undiscovered for quite awhile if not forever.

Let's face it, those instructors do exist, but they are rare. Most instructors follow the standards of their agency to the letter and believe they are doing a good job as a result.

What I'm saying is, regardless of any formal standards, it always comes down to the Instructor. Either an Instructor cares, is responsible, and takes ownership for the quality of diver they cert or they don't.

Or perhaps they simply don't know any better. They were certified through XYZ's system, that's the only system they know. They think, incorrectly, that it's a good system. They can't teach what they don't know. They trust XYZ agency, they truly believe XYZ agency is an authority on diving and on teaching. In reality XYZ agency is an authority on marketing and has little interest in either diving or teaching, they only care about profits. I believe you are too willing to put the blame on instructors that should rest with the agencies. There's no excuse for low standards.

No standards, regulations, or anything else is going to change that.

I think they will.

Thankfully, I feel the majority of Instructors are responsible and the crappy one's are in the minority.

The majority are responsible and believe they are doing a good job, but unfortunately they are following crappy standards and produce crappy students as a result. It's not their fault nor the fault of their students. It's the fault of the agencies that have written crappy standards.

Look at the overall safety record of diving.

I'd love to, but unfortunately that is impossible. We have no idea what kind of a safety record diving has.

I do not know what kind, good or bad, of training the couple involved in the accident received.

 

[tridacna]

Pretty off handed dismissal given your recent Cozumel experiences Don.

What? You think that a BS discussion about whether a teaspoon of water can drown you is fruitful? You must must be joking. With the exception of a few posts (none of them yours), this entire thread is indeed a waste of time.

 

[DandyDon]

Pretty off handed dismissal given your recent Cozumel experiences Don.

When other methods fail, attempt hijack...

 

[mdb]

3. Communication between divers who are going to dive together is crucial at any level. I do dive solo, When with a buddy we plan and stick to the plan. Other wise IMO it's better to dive alone. That way I know I'm the one who will need to save my ass if something goes wrong and plan for that. New divers should never dive alone.
Next?

Jim: Your whole post was very good. Thank You.

Point # 3 is the reason I, most often, prefer to dive solo.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

What? You think that a BS discussion about whether a teaspoon of water can drown you is fruitful? You must must be joking. With the exception of a few posts (none of them yours), this entire thread is indeed a waste of time.

Then why are you reading it? To those of us who care about the quality of our students once they leave us these threads are exactly what is needed. We look at the breakdowns in communication, buddy skills, gas management, etc and use those to pass on valuable lessons to our OW divers. My personal feeling is if these types of things scare people off or cause them to re-evaluate their training then they have done alot of good.

When students are trained to agency standards and they still are not competent or comfortable in the water then those standards are petty much worthless. If my agency were to lessen our standards- like Walter- I would cease to teach until I found an agency whose standards were as high or exceeded those I choose to teach under. I would rather a student discontinue training and give up the sport if he/she felt the requirements were too tough than go with a cert factory shop. Making things easy for people to get certed benefits nothing except the bank accounts of those who feel the need to get as many people in the water as fast as possible.

Taking the need to think about what you are doing out of diving is to me disgusting. The editor of one major agency's magazine loves computers because he does not have to think when diving now. THat's one hell of an attitude for what I would consider a role model to new divers. Don't think, buy a computer, no need to understand squat just trust the electronic gizmo. Forget about dive tables, you don't need em. We don't want to waste time forcing you to use your brain.

This sport has the potential to kill people. I make no bones about it with my students and therefore they appreciate the extra time we spend in class and in the pool. If they want a quick cert go somewhere else. Just realize what the outcome might be if the stuff hits the fan.

Finally I received a call from a lady who witnessed the tail end of the recovery of the victim. She and her hubby were on vacation and when they got back she looked on the net to see if there was any word of the incident. She was led to this thread and subsequently my website where she got my number. The paramedics were already on scene and doing chest compressions, the two divers who brought her out were female because one of the medics went over to them and told them that they had done all they could for the vic(meaning the divers). THey then put her on some type of transport to get her off the beach and up to the ambulance while keeping up CPR. She said what really struck her and her husband as odd was that she seemed to be alone. Unless the husband was already up at the ambulance there was no one looking concerned or distraught, save the EMS crew and the divers who brought her out. They actually thought at first that she had gone for an early morning swim by herself and got into trouble. And did not realize she'd been diving because her gear was already off. She said that there were two other guys in wetsuits looking out at sea as if they were looking for her dive partner. I any case this is for me a valuable lesson to pass on to my students. Those who do not wish to use it as such are welcome to disregard it. I for one do not believe in sugar coating the risks we face when we dive.

 

[tridacna]

Then why are you reading it? To those of us who care about the quality of our students once they leave us these threads are exactly what is needed. We look at the breakdowns in communication, buddy skills, gas management, etc and use those to pass on valuable lessons to our OW divers. My personal feeling is if these types of things scare people off or cause them to re-evaluate their training then they have done alot of good.

When students are trained to agency standards and they still are not competent or comfortable in the water then those standards are petty much worthless. If my agency were to lessen our standards- like Walter- I would cease to teach until I found an agency whose standards were as high or exceeded those I choose to teach under. I would rather a student discontinue training and give up the sport if he/she felt the requirements were too tough than go with a cert factory shop. Making things easy for people to get certed benefits nothing except the bank accounts of those who feel the need to get as many people in the water as fast as possible.

Taking the need to think about what you are doing out of diving is to me disgusting. The editor of one major agency's magazine loves computers because he does not have to think when diving now. THat's one hell of an attitude for what I would consider a role model to new divers. Don't think, buy a computer, no need to understand squat just trust the electronic gizmo. Forget about dive tables, you don't need em. We don't want to waste time forcing you to use your brain.

This sport has the potential to kill people. I make no bones about it with my students and therefore they appreciate the extra time we spend in class and in the pool. If they want a quick cert go somewhere else. Just realize what the outcome might be if the stuff hits the fan.

Finally I received a call from a lady who witnessed the tail end of the recovery of the victim. She and her hubby were on vacation and when they got back she looked on the net to see if there was any word of the incident. She was led to this thread and subsequently my website where she got my number. The paramedics were already on scene and doing chest compressions, the two divers who brought her out were female because one of the medics went over to them and told them that they had done all they could for the vic(meaning the divers). THey then put her on some type of transport to get her off the beach and up to the ambulance while keeping up CPR. She said what really struck her and her husband as odd was that she seemed to be alone. Unless the husband was already up at the ambulance there was no one looking concerned or distraught, save the EMS crew and the divers who brought her out. They actually thought at first that she had gone for an early morning swim by herself and got into trouble. And did not realize she'd been diving because her gear was already off. She said that there were two other guys in wetsuits looking out at sea as if they were looking for her dive partner. I any case this is for me a valuable lesson to pass on to my students. Those who do not wish to use it as such are welcome to disregard it. I for one do not believe in sugar coating the risks we face when we dive.

That's an awfully long diatribe to defend the merits of an argument about "drowning in a teaspoon of water". Your posts up to now have been quite informative albeit a tad verbose. I must say that I do like what you have to say however.

 

[mikerault]

You may not find the discussion so stupid next time a wave catches you wrong and that teaspoon of salt water throws you into a larnygeal spasm. I have had it happen and it is not fun. I didn't drown of course but did gain a perspective on just how fragile we really are.

Let's see the FBI says it happens, our own medial experts on the board say it happens, but you with your infinite medical knowlege poo-poos it, gee, I guess I better believe you!

Mike

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That's an awfully long diatribe to defend the merits of an argument about "drowning in a teaspoon of water". Your posts up to now have been quite informative albeit a tad verbose. I must say that I do like what you have to say however.

I could care less about the teaspoon full of water. I am in no way defending that and wish it had not made it's way into this thread. While perhaps a valid and good topic it had no place here in my mind. My post was regarding the purpose of the thread. Since we do not know what the actual cause was I choose to focus on what is known and draw conclusions to add to my lectures for my students. If I could I'd move the laryngeal discussion to another thread. I wanted the thread moved to further discussion on the incident itself. Not to get into pages on how little water it takes to drown a person. Why not just throw in how much venom it takes from a jellyfish to kill someone? Or how to turn straw into gold? Why not? Because it does not take into account the facts as known. Speculation based on known facts is valuable. Speculation based on speculation is worthless. Hopefully now this will get back on track.

Sorry if my posts come across as "verbose" but I try not leave anything open to specualtion as to what I am saying. Comes from having too good of an education I guess. And trying to be a well read and well spoken person. I do lapse from time to time- usually in the Pub.

 

[tridacna]

I could care less about the teaspoon full of water

Jim, neither could I nor most others that are following this thread. Your input is valuable and much appreciated. I apologize if my comment came across otherwise.

OTOH, there are others that post such meaningless balderdash and irrelevant trivialities, it is quite infuriating. I sincerely believe that they are trying to boost their post count. They don't contribute nor add anything of value to the discussion.