LBTS Diver Death

[Jim Lapenta]

Never fails, a tragic accident and the "experts" who have no clue as to what actually happened start spouting their expertise. Anyone else here that would actually like to wait for the facts to materialize before boldly announcing what must have happened?

I started this thread in order to try to answer questions on what might have happened due to inquiries I received from people who live in the area they are from. I live less than 4 miles from 84 PA. No one here has said what specifically was the cause. But what has been posted are valid ideas as to why these types of things happen. I am going to ask a mod to move this to the accidents and incidents thread so that these theories may continue to be discussed. As I stated in my previous post these things happen because of events that many times can be prevented. In some cases medical issues intervene, sometimes without warning. A good friends dad died cutting grass years ago. No history of cardiac trouble, did not drink or smoke, regularly exercised, and had just had a physical 2 months before. No problems noted. While cutting grasss he had a massiive coronary that destroyed 70% of his heart. No warning. It just happened.

Could this have been the case here? No one knows yet. But what we do know is that new divers in benign conditions from all accounts became seperated and one died. This lesson must be passed on to students to never take anything for granted. This sport will kill you if you mess up. Good can come out of this if it convinces new divers of the importance of stying with your buddy and not losing track of them. Could the buddy have saved the victim? We don't know that either. What we do know is that when buddy teams do not stay together there is a larger risk of a bad outcome should something happen. I will use this accident from now on to illustrate to my students what could possibly happen. Hopefully they will take heed and make buddy skills as high a priority as I do when diving with another person.

 

[mikerault]

Sorry if I am not being politically correct. I thought some possible ideas were what was wanted. Since drowning was the cause of death then heart attack, stroke or other medical conditions are off the table if the medical examiner was worth his salt. Now, drowning could have been caused by a flooding of that beloved snorkle of yours. Or by a splash of water causing a spasm as she shifted from regulator to snorkle. One can drown in a teaspoon of water under the right conditions.

If one doesn't switch to snorkle but reserves enough air to keep the regulator until they can stand on a shore entry the chance of drowning from a freak incident goes way down, hence my use of the thirds even for shore dives. I've taken mouthfuls of saltwater even in calm seas using a snorkle too many times, not to mention having the darn "dry" snorkles slam shut just when I need them the most.

As I said, I want to know more about this accident to determine what really happened, unfortunately no one will probably ever know the true cause since there were in fact no witnesses other than the victum, therefore bringing to the discussion possible causes and ways to prevent them helps more than hurts in my opinion.

If my comments/suggestions helps one other diver keep this from happening to themselves or their buddy then it is worth it to put up with short sighted comments on my intentions.


Mike

 

[ONESPEED]

Sorry if I am not being politically correct. I thought some possible ideas were what was wanted. Since drowning was the cause of death then heart attack, stroke or other medical conditions are off the table if the medical examiner was worth his salt. Now, drowning could have been caused by a flooding of that beloved snorkle of yours. Or by a splash of water causing a spasm as she shifted from regulator to snorkle. One can drown in a teaspoon of water under the right conditions.

If one doesn't switch to snorkle but reserves enough air to keep the regulator until they can stand on a shore entry the chance of drowning from a freak incident goes way down, hence my use of the thirds even for shore dives. I've taken mouthfuls of saltwater even in calm seas using a snorkle too many times, not to mention having the darn "dry" snorkles slam shut just when I need them the most.

As I said, I want to know more about this accident to determine what really happened, unfortunately no one will probably ever know the true cause since there were in fact no witnesses other than the victum, therefore bringing to the discussion possible causes and ways to prevent them helps more than hurts in my opinion.

If my comments/suggestions helps one other diver keep this from happening to themselves or their buddy then it is worth it to put up with short sighted comments on my intentions.


Mike

Thank you Dr. Quincy. I for one will wait for cold hard facts to make any determinations on this incident.

 

[Cave Diver]

It really points to the importance of gas management and staying with your buddy! If they had used the rule of thirds (assuming low air had somethng to do with this) she would hve had air to submerge and figure things out. Had he stayed with her (especially after so few dives) he could have assisted her with the BCD or air. I am waiting to hear more about the causes of the accident, what was the state of her air supply? Had she dropped her weights?

Mike

Your statement about 1/3's is a huge leap. By your own admission you "assume low air" and then inquire about the state of her air supply. How do you know that they didnt use an appropriate gas plan?

Submerge to figure things out? Do you know that there was a problem during the dive to figure out? None of the articles I read had any sort of information regarding the dive itself.

For all we know, based on the lack of information, they could have swum out, started a descent and she could have felt bad and called the dive with a full tank remaining. Just because the coroner ruled it as accidental drowning doesnt mean there wasn't another issue that led to it.

Analysis of the facts can provide useful information. Speculation rarely does.

 

[Cave Diver]

Sorry if I am not being politically correct. I thought some possible ideas were what was wanted.

If I read the OP correctly he was asking for info (facts) vs. ideas (speculation).

Since drowning was the cause of death then heart attack, stroke or other medical conditions are off the table if the medical examiner was worth his salt.

In many cases drowning is listed as the actual cause of death, even tho other factors or conditions may have precipitated or contributed to it. As I understand it, if there is a significant amount (and I don't know what percentage this equates to) of water in the lungs, then the victim is presumed to have still been breathing at the time. Another medical condition may have incapacitated them, but the actual COD was drowning.

 

[I Dive]

One can drown in a teaspoon of water under the right conditions.
Mike

Under what conditions can a person drown in a teaspoon of water?

 

[ONESPEED]

Under what conditions can a person drown in a teaspoon of water?

Yeah, that statement made me go :huh: too.

 

[Johnoly]

....., but the actual COD was drowning.

I agree, the Medical Examiner[ME] will list the cause of death as drowning in almost all underwater scuba deaths, which is technically correct.

I have personally been involved in 3 scuba deaths. In 2 of the cases I had to submit very detailed requests under the FOI act to get the ME's reports. And in one of them, had to have the county attorney review my request since he knew I would bump it to a hearing if he did not approve my request of the release of the equipment report.

It it up to the family (or interested party) to obtain the reports and then have them analyzed to determine the contributing causes. Don't just call the ME's office and say you want the autopsy report because all your going to get is a page with summary info. You need to request the following reports and be prepared to push the city/county attorney if they are not released, but most ME's will release.

ME's Autopsy report
Pathologist table notes
Electrolyte panel report
Blood screen report
Volatiles report
ME investigator accident site report
Full equipment report
Dive computer readout report
Gas analysis report

None of this will be available until usually 120 days after the incident and maybe another month longer if the ME determines additional investigation is needed.

But I would caution that even after receiving all these reports, you still may only be able to only eliminate theories and still have multiple scenerios that are still viable. It will take several trained eyes to read the reports and give opinions on contributory causes.

Looking at the above reports can bring some info to the family and maybe even some closure to them. In each of the reports I pulled, I was shocked at what I read so you need some thick skin.

In addition, many of us have been involved with scuba deaths, even from years ago. The above information is usually still available from the ME office. If you have been through an event, I would encourage you to contact the ME's office for the reports to bring some answers that may help you understand contributing causes.

I have no comment on this incident other than to offer my condolences to the family and friends during this difficult loss.

 

[Cave Diver]

Under what conditions can a person drown in a teaspoon of water?

Two possible sources for this myth:

If a person is fated to drown, he'll lose his life even in a teaspoon of water. ...

Dictionary of 1000 Jewish Proverbs - Page 27
by David C. Gross - Reference - 1997

The Adventures of Augie March - Page 465
by Saul Bellow

(Augie's brother, Simon, is largely hated in his club for his boasting.)

"They could drown you in a teaspoonful of water," I said. "Why do you want to make them hate you so?"

"Because I hate them. I want them to know it. ..."

Not having read the book, I'm going to say the author invented that sentence to fit the situation. I imagine the braggart has taken part in many annoying arguments of the form:
A makes a casual comment: "I'm such a poor swimmer, I could drown in the bathtub"
Braggart has to outdo A: "Well, I'm such a poor swimmer, I could drown in a bowl of soup."
A, not to be one upped: "I could drown in a cup of tea".
Braggart, having to have the last word, : "I could drown in a teaspoon of water."
A walks away annoyed and grumbling, "I wish he would drown in that teaspoon of water!"

 

[diver 85]

Yep. That means they don't believe it was murder or suicide.

sad to say but it was my very 1st thought....