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oh, what the hell, this is scubaboard...

intro cave divers, diving thirds, on single tanks, seems like a dangerous combination to me. complete catastrophic gas loss at max penetration (single tank makes this a higher risk), combined with higher SAC rates on the way out (intro divers make this a higher risk) could leave the divers without enough gas to exit. or am i doing the math wrong here?

limiting intro divers to 1/6ths makes more sense to me than limiting them to singles...
 
H2Andy:
you're talking about fully trained divers. for them, the risk of "getting over
their heads" is minimal compared to the loss of a cylinder.

So the fully trained divers opt to dive with doubles as being the appropriate tool for the job.

on the other hand, for student divers, the (already slim) danger of a single
tank failure is much less than the chances they will get in over their heads.

they are students. they are not full cave divers. they need guidance and
support... and yes... limits...

Students HAVE limits. As I understand it, mainline only and to 1/6 of doubles or 1/3 of a single. Again I'll bring up that this is arbitrary because it doesn't actually specify a volume of gas that constitutes an Intro Level dive or how far into the cave is appropriate. The point is, the limits are there. It is up to the Intro diver to adhere to them and understand that they apply to him or her.

as to overreaching being mental, you can't overeach as much with a single tank
as you can with doubles. clearly, even if mental, you have to have the ability
to overreach, and doubles give you twice the ability.

Read above. If overreaching is mental, then it matters not what you have on your back. You have made the decision to exceed your training and that's the overreach. You could be in the car planning a dive for next week and if it's beyond training, that's where it happens. There is no "twice the ability" with doubles. Either the decision was made to do a dive within training, or not. Black/White.

I would like to hear about any incidents you know of that involve intro divers diving within their limits and having problems.

R
 
biscuit7:
Read above. If overreaching is mental, then it matters not what you have on your back. You have made the decision to exceed your training and that's the overreach.


ok, it's a simple point: if you decide to over-reach yoruself with a single tank,
you have to turn back a lot quicker. ergo, less chance for something to go
wrong at the wrong place.

if you decide to over-reach with doubles, you have twice as much gas, twice
as much time to turn back, and twice as much a chance for something
going wrong at the wrong place.

in other words, doubles let you exceed your training by a considerable margin
over singles.
 
And twice as much gas to get you back... but the point is still that doing more technical diving requires a fortitude that does not appear to present when someone is making bad decisions about how to conduct a dive or overreaching.

I don't see how the chances of something going wrong double unless you just mean that in the whole time underwater/something going wrong algorithm you're spending more time in the cave itself.

You clearly have it set in your brain, and you'll eagerly defend the fact, that diving singles in a cave is a perfectly appropriate way to dive and there is no increased risk by doing so. I actively disagree and clearly one will not be swaying the other.

Good luck, safe diving!

Rachel
 
WoW, this thread got big quick.

on TDS there have been a few NACD instructors that have said that they AGREE that doubles is the way to go. But they still argue defending the NACD policy, after all speaking out against your "boss" isnt a smart thing to do and you might get excommunicated. Rich posted some of the hoops a person can jump thru in order to get a waiver. For some its not as simple as "shooting off an email".

I wonder if the reason they do that is to "encourage" intro instructors to become full cave instructors.

If saftey really is the concern, why not limit penetrations to say...1000ft, this can be marked or gaped, that way a guy w/ an LP121 (cave filled) can not (according to the rules) penetrate further into a cave that a guy on dblAL80.
 
OK, since this thread started by saying that Ginnie Springs owners are free to do what ever they want, let me get right out in front and say that I agree, they are free to run their business however they see fit. Their choices may be in part derived from the standards of some, or a conglomoration of many agencies. They may base their opinion on their perception of the level of legal exposure they are willing to take in the event of an accident. Whatever their reasons, they are free to place restrictions on their customers.

The various agencies that have instruction programs can make restrictions on just what they feel divers who have successfully completed differing levels of instruction should limit themselves to.

If I don't like it I should either buy Ginnie Springs (will they take a check?), or become a voting member or otherwise take control of the agencies. Since we all know that the likelyhood of me taking control of anything larger than my own personal life is pretty remote (my wife will attest to just how much control over my own life she is willing to give me) all I can do is stand on a soap box and say what I think.

First a little background about myself and my experiences that might be germane to this issue. I have successfully completed cave diving instruction to the level of "Full Cave" diver with both TDI, and NACD. My instructor for both of these was GDI, the initiator of this thread. I have not spoken with GDI about this post or this specific issue. At various points in my instruction GDI did make clear to me the limitations that both TDI and the NACD make on divers at various levels of instruction. My experience as a cave diver is still very limited and I choose to dive in a very conservative manner.

The situation at Ginnie Springs with regard to the distance of penetration into the cave could be addressed by simply putting up a sign either at the lips or near the keyhole indicating that Intro level divers should proceed no further into the system regardless of their remaining gas supply, this limitation would be independent on whether the diver in question was wearing a single cylinder or double cylinders, it would simply be a distance limitation in that one single system.

It would seem reasonalble to me that the agencies should permit divers who have demonstrated proficiency in the use of double cylinders to dive doubles without an extra time limited waiver. Divers who have not demonstrated proficiency in doubles would be limited to single cylinders until they separately show proficiency in doubles. The agencies could offer separate instruction in the safe use of double cylinders, this class could be a prerequisite to most if not all technical instruction with a provision that a diver who could already demonstrate proficiency could get a waiver without needing separate instruction. I think that it would be good for these agencies to encourage the use of double cylinders in overhead environments in preference to single cylinders.

With the agencies on board with the training for double cylinders and a distance limit represented by the sign Ginnie Springs would be free to adjust their policy regarding the use of double cylinders by all divers otherwise trained to enter the cave.

It would make sense for the agencies to revise the gas limits for Intro level divers from 1/3 for single cylinders or 1/6 for double cylinders to perhaps (i'm picking a number out of thin air without any accident analysis) 1/4 regardless of cylinder configuration. This of course might invite a revision of the depth limits to a shallower depth and greater emphasis on staying out of decompression. If a diver was diving independent doubles then it would be wise to make clear that the 1/4 limit was to be applied to each cylinder and not just the total gas supply.

I also think that decompression training should be a prerequisite to Apprentice and Full cave. If a diver already had decompression training then that diver could have a waiver to do decompression dives even at the Intro level, but no other changes with regard to gas supply or depth.

There are many issues either being specifically discussed or talked "around" in this thread and they are all related in some way to each other and the answers are not easy nor will they be fast in coming.

Well there are my two cents.

Mark Vlahos
 
yet another option would be to allow Intro instructors to give "the waiver" if the student showed proficiency in doubles.
 
biscuit7:
Why don't full cave divers take totally beefed up single 120s in with them? Because that configuration is fundamentally unsuitable for the environment. Have you EVER seen someone that was allowed to wear doubles opt for a single?

Actually I am a full cave diver and will opt for a single. I will do no mounting where we use a single in the exact configuration as a single tank intro diver,but I will push that tank through very tight areas. I put a lot of confidence in the single tank h valve configuration because it is redundant,and proven under extreme conditions.
 
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