Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[H2Andy]

so your beef is the extra step of saying to your instructor "hey, i need a piece
of paper to dive doubles," and your instructor saying, "ok"

????

 

[Soggy]

so your beef is the extra step of saying to your instructor "hey, i need a piece
of paper to dive doubles," and your instructor saying, "ok"

????

No. If the instructor is not a full cave instructor, they cannot provide a discretionary apprentice form, but my beef has nothing to do with that. My beef is with the inherent flaw in the system wherein relatively new divers are encouraged to dive with equipment that is fundamentally unsuitable for the dive.

Look, I'm not worried about *my* training. I can make my own decisions. I'm a big boy. My concern is for people who might not know better and are told that they are required to dive with an equipment configuration that is unsafe.

 

[H2Andy]

so your beef is that the NACD and NSS-CDS are wrong, and no diving in singles
should be allowed in an overhead environment?

and how long have you been cave diving?

 

[wreckchick]

Ok, I'm piping up here because I think that Soggy's point is bang on. What on earth difference does it make if you're 500' or 5000' back in a cave? What is it about being "not very far in" that makes the equipment requirements that different? Why don't full cave divers take totally beefed up single 120s in with them? Because that configuration is fundamentally unsuitable for the environment. Have you EVER seen someone that was allowed to wear doubles opt for a single?

The arguement that singles limit gas supply and keep intro divers out of trouble doesn't hold even a little bit for me. How many OW divers go out and do ridiculously stupid things and croak only to have all the armchair accident analysts out there say it's because they had too much gas strapped to their backs. I'm not hearing anyone say that we should limit OW divers to al63s and you can dive an 80 until you get AOW.

I have the ability to dive like a complete moron on any given day. I can overstay my NDLs, overstay my gas supply, go into the bowels of a ship without a light, a reel and with insufficient gas supply and short hoses all over. I don't do it. Why? Because I'm not an idiot.

The cave environment is more hostile and less forgiving, so why on earth would anyone think that setting yourself up with less than optimal gear and reserves is a good idea? There is no such thing as "recreational cave diving". In fact, if you look at any definition of technical diving, overhead, hard or soft, is one of the key factors. I can't honestly think of an overhead that fits the bill more than the cave environment.

You (plural and generalized) are free to dive in whatever manner you see fit, but if you think that you'll ever catch me in a cave with less than 2 tanks and an isolator manifold on my back, you are sorely mistaken and not only that, anyone I dive with will be configured similarly. I also have no interest in training with an agency that promotes singles diving in overheard.

</rant>

Rachel

 

[H2Andy]

What on earth difference does it make if you're 500' or 5000' back in a cave? What is it about being "not very far in" that makes the equipment requirements that different?

well, for one, you are much closer to open water, with less distance to cover,
and all that closer to the end of an OOA emergency

i think Soggy covered most of this... besides, the statistics just don't
show that diving singles in an overhead environment is much of a risk.

the far greater risk (casualty wise) is exceeding the limits of your training,
such as venturing too far or into depths you're not prepred or trained to go.

again, when you weigh the risks, single tank failure is minimal compared to
double-tank "over-reaching"

 

[wreckchick]

Overreaching is mental. The equipment doesn't make you do it.

You didn't answer the question about full cave divers opting for singles. Have you seen this or not?

R

 

[H2Andy]

Overreaching is mental. The equipment doesn't make you do it.

You didn't answer the question about full cave divers opting for singles. Have you seen this or not?

R

you're talking about fully trained divers. for them, the risk of "getting over
their heads" is minimal compared to the loss of a cylinder.

on the other hand, for student divers, the (already slim) danger of a single
tank failure is much less than the chances they will get in over their heads.

they are students. they are not full cave divers. they need guidance and
support... and yes... limits...

as to overreaching being mental, you can't overeach as much with a single tank
as you can with doubles. clearly, even if mental, you have to have the ability
to overreach, and doubles give you twice the ability.

 

[plankspanker]

If my arguments are good, what does it matter?

it matters if no one listens because you turned them off with the delivery and calling entire agencies and those associated ignorant and oblivious isn't productive no matter how right you think you are.

It is equally possible that those people in the agencies have gotten so entrenched in the politics of the situation that they are no longer doing the right thing. I don't need to have been inside a cave to understand that a required 500ft swim underneath rock is not advisbile when carrying a small quantity of non-redundant gas.

You may very well be right, I haven't a clue of the politics down there and don't want to know as that is the least attractive aspect of cave diving for me. As to the other part I can't argue with it but there are options available to avoid that that have been covered already so choose the option that suits you.
GUE cave 1
letter from your intro instructor if they are full cave or from your future app/full instructor if they aren't.
ignore the rule and dive sites that don't require you to follow them.

 

[GDI]

Let me congratulate the oposing sides for bringing up their points. I hope the discussions will remain civil.

I also have no interest in training with an agency that promotes singles diving in overheard.

Let me add here that neither the NACD nor the NSS-CDS promote diving caves. As a instructor I cannot promote cave diving under the standards of these agencies. I do need to promote safe cave diving The use of a single at the intro level is a limitation in their standards.

 

[wreckchick]

Would you prefer "actively discourages the use of doubles" as an alternative phrase?

R