Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[Soggy]

I agree with Andy. If you want to dive doubles in an overhead at the intro level, don't plan to stop at intro, and get a provisional. Simple as that.

You are suggesting a way to work around the rules rather than solve the inherent problem.

Bottom line is that Intro, as a non-time-limited certification, is a recreational level cave cert and only allowed to dive a single.

Recreational level cave cert is an oxymoron.

 

[Soggy]

using this rational, 1/3's on doubles at the edge of your penetration may not
be enough either

If I have a failure on my doubles I get to keep half the gas because I can isolate. I'd end up with 1/2 of 2/3rds, so 1/3rd left in my tanks. Which is just the right amount to bring me back home.

btw, i have refrained from using epiteths to describe you our your argumens.
i ask that you return the favor or i'll stop discussing this issue with you.

I apologize. I feel *very* strongly on this issue and I think it is incredibly irresponsible for any agency to be promoting overhead diving without redundancy. It honestly makes me angry, which isn't easy to do. I tried to specify that "you" wasn't meaning you specifically in my more colorful rants.

 

[Jason B]

I'm not giving a work around. It is the path provided by the training agencies. If you don't care to take it, quit your *****ing.

 

[Soggy]

Sog I'm not against you But I do need to state one more time that it is not just the NACD that has this limitation.

Yeah, I know...it's really unfortunate....I'm glad some other agencies have evolved beyond that, such as NAUI and GUE. I am doing my Intro class with the same instructor that did my deco training and if I wasn't so interested in her instruction specifically, I would avoid NACD, NSS-CDS, and any other single-tank oriented "let's not burden people with doubles" agencies like the plague.

I am working with the NACD reviewing standards and this just happens to be one of them under review and it has been for some time. If you want me to go to the table to have it changed then I need better reasons than what I am seeing on any of these chat boards. The safety record of Intro divers on single tanks speaks for itself. and again I can see both sides of the issue.

The only reason I can see is, if you have a burst disk failure near the limit of your penetration, you'll probably drown.

 

[Soggy]

I'm not giving a work around. It is the path provided by the training agencies. If you don't care to take it, quit your *****ing.

The problem is that it is a flawed path that recommends dangerous practices to the least experienced. That's my whole gripe. I'm not complaining because of its effect on *me*.
I can make my own choices, just as everyone else can. I'm bothered by the danger it puts others in who don't know better.

 

[Soggy]

When you say the tank explodes I am assuming that you are just talking about a valve and not a regulator that you could just shut down. I am assuming that you are not talking about a actual exploding tank because that occuring would most likely cause a severe injury if not having killed you.

I am referring to a catestrophic gas loss due to burst disk or tank o-ring failure, which will drain a tank in less than a minute.

For your information such a very thing occured while Ice diving one day and good training is what saved our asses. Poorly trained skills are the same as not having those skills. Not having good skills and knowledge causes panic and failure

Don't get me started on "recreational" ice diving methodologies.

 

[Jason B]

Maybe we can look at this from a cave conservation level. An intro diver with no desire to further his training can only do half as much damage when he bangs into the ceiling.

 

[Soggy]

I am not trying to be a jerk about it but while I think your intentions are good and your arguments are good if I am not mistaken you have no personal experience with this at all and you are coming across (to me anyway) as a know it all.

If my arguments are good, what does it matter?

but for you to be arguing about policies and procedures in a section of the sport that you haven't participated in smacks of arrogance. Let the people who live and breath cave diving every day deal with the policies and make your own decisions based on your own reasons but try to refrain from telling everyone else how it should be based on second hand information.

It is equally possible that those people in the agencies have gotten so entrenched in the politics of the situation that they are no longer doing the right thing. I don't need to have been inside a cave to understand that a required 500ft swim underneath rock is not advisbile when carrying a small quantity of non-redundant gas.

It's interesting that I'm a lone gunman in this thread, but over on TDS (where it is mostly technical divers), the single tank supporters are quite in the minority. I am seeing a lot of "well, it's worked so far" arguments, which is a really dangerous path to go down.

 

[H2Andy]

If I have a failure on my doubles I get to keep half the gas because I can isolate. I'd end up with 1/2 of 2/3rds, so 1/3rd left in my tanks. Which is just the right amount to bring me back home.

ok... we keep talking past each other

the scenario which you are talking about almost never has been known to happen;
it is extremely rare. also, it would have to happen just at the exact right time
(as we're turning the dive). also, it assumes i would not be able to use my tank
for some duration after the accident. i mean, tanks just don't empty in two seconds.

you just stack the scenario against reality to suit your argument.

vs.

the very real possiblitity of new divers getting in over their head by using double
tanks and going too far, too deep, and exceeding training.

that's why cave divers die. they dont' die because their tanks burst on them.

they die because they exceed training and experience

there's 30 years of statistics that back this up

i think 1/6 on doubles is a good way to insure both the safety of
the student as well as insuring he or she knows where the limit
of his/her training lies.

 

[Soggy]

Well, you may say it's unlikely, and it is, but it is completely within the realm of possibility. I mean, why do you think people dive doubles with an isolation manifold at all?

the scenario which you are talking about almost never has been known to happen;
it is extremely rare. also, it would have to happen just at the exact right time
(as we're turning the dive). also, it assumes i would not be able to use my tank
for some duration after the accident. i mean, tanks just don't empty in two seconds.

They empty pretty darn quick if a burst disk goes.

the very real possiblitity of new divers getting in over their head by using double
tanks and going too far, too deep, and exceeding training.

that's why cave divers die. they dont' die because their tanks burst on them.

they die because they exceed training.

there's 30 years of statistics that back this up

We are in agreement. Divers should be trained to dive doubles (a safer configuration) in caves to 1/6ths at the Intro Level. Simple. I mean, if you are trained in doubles, and trained to dive 1/6ths, you are not exceeding your training, right?