Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[H2Andy]

How many Intro divers are doing how many dives with singles?

that's a very good question, and would produce better data. in fact, this is
exactly the sort of data we need to figure out if there's even a problem.

crying wolf in the absence of data just doesn't make sense.


but 0 fatalities out of X is still 0% fatalities

 

[adder70]

GUE is right! GUE is right! Diving GUE is DIR!


Which clearly indicates that you are not GUE trained.

I am surprised that this thread has continued but this is actually a good thing. While you were all having the discussion continue I was out diving or working on my garage. I have read the complete thread and I am taking note of your points. I have addressed this and other things with the training director.

Please allow me to respond to the above statements(with a tone of humour).

Your right I'm not GUE trained, I am trained by DWW! (Doing What Works) and therefore I feel I am free to dive the world.

The statements above were (mostly) in jest, with a bit of lingering irritation at the cult like attitude some GUE people have shown.

Soggy did make a note of your hose routing in your avatar. I am surprised that you are wearing a snorkel (on the right side). Please tell me you are not GUE trained?

No, I am NACD Intro, and that was in open water (outside the Ginnie cavern, to be precise). I always dive the same setup, since I don't have the funds to have multiple setups as some apparently do. In cavern/cave, I don't take the snorkel, and BTW, I have the Intro mostly to negate the daylight and very limited penetration rules associated with cavern. I will probably never go more than 2/3 the average penetration distance most Intro divers go anyway. I just like to be able to wander around without having to constantly wonder if I'm within 130 feet of accessible surface, or stay above 70ft.

BTW, I am also a DWW diver, and the GUE routing works really well, so I use it all the time.

 

[scubafool]

And 1 out of 10,000 (totally made up number) is 1/100th of 1%, which is really close to your number. Without some actual real numbers, either statistic is unsupported.

How many Intro divers that you know that dive regularily dive singles? Not many, I bet.

How many Intro divers that you know that dive regularily that dive doubles?

 

[H2Andy]

well, if diving singles were as dangerous as it's cracked up to be, then i'd expect
to see some fatalities.

but there isn't even one.

this supports my thesis that the danger is over-emphasized.

 

[notabob]

While many of you are arguing these points I have to look at the fact that many of you were recently trained at the intro level. In fact many of you were trained at this level by NACD instructors. So are any of the instructors from other agencies not competent?

Yes, many of us are fairly new intro divers. Which makes us fresh blood. As such, many of us may have views or ideas that may challenge the long-established SOPs. Admittedly, some of those views may not hold water, but many others do. Just because we're new to this, doesn't mean our ideas aren't valid and worth considering.

As for the agencies, I don't think anyone here said that instructors for any particular agency are better than another. No one here is challenging instructors, we're simply suggesting that some of the old rules are outdated and need to grow and change.

I agree those who will break the rules will do so regardless of what they are wearing for a gas supply it is in their nature to do so and they will do so. In the end however should they die they are added to the stats. In the cave diving community we call this accident analysis. It is accident analysis that drives our S&P's

Then could it be that the rules of accident analysis weren't applied properly to that particular S&P (singles vs. doubles at intro)? That something was missed or orverlooked? I'm sorry, but there simply isn't anything or anyone out there that will be able to convince me, and quite a few others, that diving a single inside a cave is safer.

And while some argue that a single is safe enough at intro level, I just don't buy into that. A cave is a cave. You either use the proper tool for the job, or don't do the job at all.

-Roman.

 

[notabob]

I think that a very pertinent question could be asked.

How many Intro divers are doing how many dives with singles?

Compared to how many Intro divers are doing how many dives with doubles?

Thank you. I said the same thing a few posts above. The notion was conveniently ignored...

 

[H2Andy]

again, if diving in singles were so dog-gonned dangerous, you'd expect some
fatalities.

not a one

spin all you like

 

[OneBrightGator]

What you are describing is a reactive, rather than proactive approach. Lots of people haven't died doing stupid things, but it doesn't make those actions any more justifiable. It's called getting lucky.

So all the divers who have done training and diving on single tanks tanks over the past 30 years have survived by luck?

That's rich coming from someone who's still riding a temp card.

 

[scubafool]

again, if diving in singles were so dog-gonned dangerous, you'd expect some
fatalities.

not a one

spin all you like

Your argument fails to address the question of just how many Intro divers are diving singles. I can't put any kind of figure to it, but I CAN say that most Intro divers that I know are diving doubles. If my admittedly limited observations hold across the broader spectrum of Intro cave divers, that tends to make the statistic you are using almost useless.

 

[H2Andy]

well... what i keep saying is that if it were so dangerous, you'd expect SOME
fatalities, and yet there are none.

where are the dead bodies due to exploding single tanks?

again, this absence of fatalities supports my thesis that diving single tanks
is not a danger to the current population of single tank divers, whatever that
number may be.

say we have a current population of 10 single tank divers. not one has
died.

ok, that's 100% safety right there.

that's pretty darn good.

but we know we have more than that. and we know there's been single-tank
overhead diving for the past what, 20 years at least? and yet, not a single
fatality.

not one.

zero.

zilch.

nada.

THAT is statistically significant.