Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[scubafool]

Unlike some, I don't neccesarily maintain that diving a single tank in an overhead is akin to having a death wish.

And as long as WhalerKyle stays in Cali without an Intro card, we all should be safe from exploding tanks while underwater.

My point is, that according to my perception, very few Intro divers are actually diving single tanks.

Let's say that 1/10th of 1% of the Intro dives in a single will end up with a death. If there are only 100 dives done in a single, the expectation would be that there would be no deaths, no?

Lets say that 1/100 of 1% of the Intro dives in doubles will end up with a death. If there are 10,000 such dives done, than the expectation is that there will be a death, correct?

 

[H2Andy]

nod... i see your point

but... with single tank dives taking place over a span of 20 years, and not
a single fatality as a result...

i think if i were a bettor, i'd hang my hat there

 

[scubafool]

And neither of us has solid figures to work off of, so all we can do is guess, hypothesize, and drink more beer, and argue, then head off to go diving next weekend. Bottom line, singles in a cave is not a magic death potion, doubles in a cave are safer if the diver exercises caution and due care. And BTW, I do agree that not everyone will exercise caution and due care, so there is an argument to be made on both sides. Hence my proposal for "small" doubles, LOL.

 

[H2Andy]

And neither of us has solid figures to work off of, so all we can do is guess, hypothesize, and drink more beer, and argue, than head off to go diving next weekend.

exactly!

let us cast our memory back 11 pages:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1579296&postcount=81

 

[scubafool]

I read the post you linked to. It included nothing about drinking beer. Also absent was any mention of the diving that we hope will occur next weekend.

I assume you had some purpose in linking to it?

 

[H2Andy]

I read the post you linked to. It included nothing about drinking beer. Also absent was any mention of the diving that we hope will occur next weekend.

I assume you had some purpose in linking to it?

purpose? we don't need no stinking purpose



beer: YAWOHL!!!

diving next weekend: YAWHOL!!!

 

[WaterDawg]

WoW guys. This thread moves fast! GDI asked a question "Do you consider that at the cavern level you are not diving in all the much of a overhead that this should not warrant doubles?" I think that since linear penetration is limited that singles are acceptable. Once you lose sight of o/w thats another story.


What If a student came to take an intro class said that: "I think Intro cave diving is not technical in nature but actually just recreational cave diving and that a single tank is adaquate."
What if it was a wreck penetration class? What if it was a Deco class (soft overhead).

Like OBG said, you cant discount the hundreds of divers that have done many , many cave dives in singles. Just remeber that many, many, many people dove w/o SPG's and no octo's and even no BCD's for many years...but I, as well as most of us use these tools. I dont think diving w/ a single (or w/o an SPG) is a "death wish", not at all I just think that agancies should promote the safest way...not just safe enough.

I also understand that demanding that students wear doubles might discourage others to take the class which mean lost revenue for many. and maybe making it so that only Full cave instructors can issue these waivers is a way to get intro instructors to become Full cave instructors.


Scubafool,

I dive w/ about 7 intro divers and know of others about 5 others, none dive singles, but I am sure than there are many who do.

 

[karstdvr]

I think that a very pertinent question could be asked.

How many Intro divers are doing how many dives with singles?

Compared to how many Intro divers are doing how many dives with doubles?

I am looking at the whole history of the single tank intro diver,not just in the last 1-2 years. 5-10 years ago there were probably more cave divers on single tanks that would get their experience before considering moving onto full cave. But we didn't have any intro type cave diving accidents at all 5-10 years ago,but we have had in the last couple of years with the advent of doubles use. One common denominator of the cave diving accidents we've seen over the last few years is people exceeding their experience level. Even though somebody may take a class,and show good skills at the end of the class,there truely is a progressive nature to building the skills and experience to handle problems and emergencies. I've had several "come to Jesus episodes" ,which I don't think I would have handled well without having a fair amount of experience. I see an urgency among cave divers to do bigger dives faster, that wasn't prevalent a number of years ago,and this leads to accidents/incidents. The whole sport is based on accident analysis,if we choose to ignore the facts,then we will continue to be doomed by the consequences. I am not trying to limit anybody's level of diving,just pointing out facts and relative data.

 

[karstdvr]

I'm sorry, but there simply isn't anything or anyone out there that will be able to convince me, and quite a few others, that diving a single inside a cave is safer.

And while some argue that a single is safe enough at intro level, I just don't buy into that. A cave is a cave. You either use the proper tool for the job, or don't do the job at all.

-Roman.

I have used a single for no mount diving that is set up identical to a single tank intro diver with an h-valve and 2 1st/2nd stages. I push cave with restrictions and very silty,and feel very safe in this configuration. This is the proper tool for the job,in fact if I carried two (double) no mount cylinders I'd put myself in a hazardous situation. I think if it can be done this way by many no mount divers,why can't it be done by two intro divers in large passage,with a buddy,who can share air by following air rules for a safe exit if there is an emergency?

 

[GDI]

karstdvr I agree with you that when we look at the facts, the stats as they are. We do not see any problem with intro divers or any others who have following the rules caused a fatality. Today though the divers are wanting more excitment and wanting to push sooner it's a faster pace life to them. In some ways this attitude may call for us to have to hold the limits as they are.

Massage the stats as you like the facts are what they are.

Scubafool has some good questions as do others here.

When we have a fatality we verify the certification level of the diver and years diving both cave and in general. We look at their equipment configuration, their equipment and the state its in tells us many things. Finally we also listen to the stories as told to us by their diving partners regarding what the dive plan was.

The number of intro divers today diving doubles vs those who remain on singles would be a varible to look at in the equation. But to date we have yet to pull a single tank diver out of the water and for that we cannot site that the safety of single vs a double is an issue. It is a tool with a purpose and an application which has a good record