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H2Andy:
i dove singles for Cavern and Intro., and was ok with it. i was really relieved when
i passed Intro because i could finally get to doubles and start practicing
for the big time ( i had some difficulties at Intro., but it had nothing to do
with single or double tanks)


That is exactly why I think that folks should dive doubles already BEFORE taking ANY technical diving courses (deco or overhead). Because that way you dont have a person learning doubles in a cave (maybe bad for the cave) or during class, as like you said there are many other things a student has to worry about.

I like the NAUI intro to tech class idea, for this.
 
well... i think that before taking doubles into the overhead environment, one
should go in with singles and learn the basics of cave conservation and
no-silting techniques

of course... if you're an ace with doubles already... that's probalby not necessary,
and you could probalby do ok with doubles and learning overhead issues
 
H2Andy:
but i don't agree with suggesting that diving a single is so dangerous that it should
not be permitted.

Well, I for one am NOT saying that it should NOT be permitted. All I am saying is that doubles should be encouraged or at least on equal grounds. I shouldnt have to jump through hoops to ba able to dive doubles. That to me is almost like encouraging singles.

We will agree to disagree about what is safer doubles or singles, but what pisses me off is that if I took Intro from an Intro instructor, Id have a hard time being allowed to "leagally" dive doubles.
 
WaterDawg:
what pisses me off is that if I took Intro from an Intro instructor, Id have a hard time being allowed to "leagally" dive doubles.


i agree. this makes no sense to me.

either the instructor is capable of qualifying you for Intro, or he is not. if he is
qualified, then he should be able to certify you for doubles.

if he is not, then he shouldn't be teaching the class in the first place
 
Nirvana!!!!!


and on that note...good night everyone!
 
H2Andy:
well... i think that before taking doubles into the overhead environment, one
should go in with singles and learn the basics of cave conservation and
no-silting techniques

I repeat my question from a few posts ago. In what ways will a cave when you are 1000ft into it be more forgiving when you're in a single vs. doubles? As waterdawg, soggy, and numerous others have already suggested - someone who is not profficient in doubles should stay out of the caves, period. I just cannot comprehend the whole mentality behind allowing, nevermind requiring, someone to do it in a single. But, I guess, to each his or her own. Us mulling it over into fine pulp again and again isn't going to change anyone's minds here. That much is obvious, I think.

of course... if you're an ace with doubles already... that's probalby not necessary,
and you could probalby do ok with doubles and learning overhead issues

So someone who's been diving doubles for years and takes an intro to cave class should now switch to a single once they get their intro c-card? oh, that makes a TON of sense... :rolleyes:
 
H2Andy:
ok, that's it. i'm not talking to you again until you can show me you can have an argument without resorting to name calling and with a little bit
of respect.

I did not call you any names. I gave you criteria for a hypocrite and allowed you to discern whether you were or were not one. From your response, I take it you believe yourself to be one. :wink:

H2Andy:
by the way, it's spelled "hypocrite"

Wow, you've got no argument, so you're resorting to correcting typos?

Look, the point is, you cannot prevent someone from violating rules, but you can allow them the best chance of survival if they do (or do not) violate those rules. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that you assume that if you have doubles, then you will violate rules. One is just as likely to violate rules with or without a set of doubles on their back, and they are more likely to come home alive if there is a problem with more gas than less. The only real added problem you get when violating the 1/6th rule on doubles is that you are more likely to go into deco, since we've established that 1/3rds is usually enough gas to get you out on doubles (and isn't on singles).

I do not have statistics, nor do I need them to justify this argument. We should *always* dive with the best equipment for the job. That should go without saying. At your own admission, doubles are the best tool for the job. If people misuse that tool, that is their problem. We've already established that you can get yourself into *more* trouble on a single LP120 on 1/3rds than a set of double 80s since you'd be penetrating close to twice as far on the single, so where does that leave us?

A burst disk failure is a realistic failure that has and can occur and the equipment is not cognizant of whether you are within a realistic air-sharing swimming distance of the exit. That is the very reason for having an isolation manifold. If you accept that diving singles in a cave is acceptable behavior, you must also accept that an isolation manifold is an unnecessary piece of equipment for diving at the full cave level since you stated that the only reason why you are carrying doubles is to extend your penetration distance, not as an added safety device. So, you would be better suited with a crossbar and eliminate those added failure points in the manifold valve.

(Those last two sentences are *very* tongue in cheek, but follow from your argument).

I could almost accept diving 1/6ths on a single in a cave. That would give you sufficient gas reserves to exit in the event of a serious failure at maximum penetration.
 
H2Andy:
i agree. this makes no sense to me.

either the instructor is capable of qualifying you for Intro, or he is not. if he is
qualified, then he should be able to certify you for doubles.

if he is not, then he shouldn't be teaching the class in the first place

Yay....Something we agree on!!!!
 
Well, this thread has been enlightening for me. I currently dive single HP120's. I am taking the NAUI Intro to tech diving in April. I want to take the intro to cavern and cave diving. However, I don't have any intentions of going past the point of diving cenotes with the limited pentration distances.

I read discussions like this to see both sides of the argument and to be able to make some rationale judgements when it comes to further training. The only advantage being limited to diving singles on the intro course is that I don't have to shovel out all the money to TRY something new that I may not have any desire to continue. While I may upgrade to doubles in my future, it would be for other endeavors than cave diving.

If the requirement gets to the point that you have to have $12K worth of gear to try into to cavern and cave or tech diving in general (the key word is TRY!), then there will be many less tech and cave divers in the future. Good for you guys but bad for the sport in general.

Thanks for all the effort put forth in this thread! I appreciate it! :D
 
jbliesath:
If the requirement gets to the point that you have to have $12K worth of gear to try into to cavern and cave or tech diving in general (the key word is TRY!), then there will be many less tech and cave divers in the future. Good for you guys but bad for the sport in general.

A set of doubles al80s can be had for ~ $500, brand new and a wing is around $300.

Cavern training is for those who want to check out the overhead environment without committing to the additional gear and training requirements. At the intro level, you can easily end up a quarter mile back inside a cave. No one belongs there without doubles.
 
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