Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[WaterDawg]

well at least NAUI-tec and GUE seem to have gotten it right.
I know that many NACD instructors feel the same way as well.

If and when the other agencies change their positions on this and teach that doubles (as well as other redundancy) are actually preferred in an overhead environment are you still gonna be saying that singles to thirds are safer?

 

[notabob]

ok, tell me what part of my previous answer you don't understand, and i'll try
to clarify

well, you stated "config of choice". In full cave, doubles is not a config of choice, it's a requirement, and for obvious reasons - it makes sense! Yet you stated "config of choice," meaning that you prefer it over singles, as opposed to simply doing it because it's a requirement... hence my question.

 

[H2Andy]

are you still gonna be saying that singles to thirds are safer?

well... let's back up here a second

i am allowed to dive doubles to 1/6. i think that is a great thing. i love it.

some agencies (i don't even know which) don't allow Intro. students to dive doubles.
i'm fine with that. i think that for students, the dangers of diving doubles outweigh
the dangers of diving a single.

that's my position on this issue

 

[H2Andy]

Yet you stated "config of choice," meaning that you prefer it over singles

correct... since i am going to be diving doubles after full cave, i would like to
practice now using doubles. that's why it's my config of choice. since i have
a choice to dive doubles over singles, i take that choice.

if i *didn't* for whatever reason, i'd either

a. switch to an agency that would give me that choice; or

b. deal with it, since diving a single tank in overhead environment as a student
is not statistically more dangerous that diving doubles as a student, and in
fact it may be more so.

i dove singles for Cavern and Intro., and was ok with it. i was really relieved when
i passed Intro because i could finally get to doubles and start practicing
for the big time ( i had some difficulties at Intro., but it had nothing to do
with single or double tanks)

 

[notabob]

well... let's back up here a second

i am allowed to dive doubles to 1/6. i think that is a great thing. i love it.

some agencies (i don't even know which) don't allow Intro. students to dive doubles.
i'm fine with that. i think that for students, the dangers of diving doubles outweigh
the dangers of diving a single.

that's my position on this issue

You keep saying "students." We're not talking about students here, we're talking about certified intro divers.

By the way, which agency are you certified with for intro to cave?

-Roman.

 

[H2Andy]

You keep saying "students." We're not talking about students here, we're talking about certified intro divers.

By the way, which agency are you certified with for intro to cave?

my view is that until you are full cave certified, you ARE a student


i am certified through NSS-CDS (cavern) and NACD (Intro.)

 

[WaterDawg]

i think that for students, the dangers of diving doubles outweigh
the dangers of diving a single.

But Andy, what do you mean by "student" someone in class or someone like you and I who are still learning? If you mean that a student in a cave class is at risk by diving doubles, I disagree because the instructor controls all aspects of the dives in a class.

If you mean that for folks like us and Soggy and notabob "the dangers of diving doubles outweigh the dangers of diving a single." I disagree (for the reasons already posted by others).

I do agree whole heartedly w/ you about there’s nothing better than doing dives in the gear your gonna be using.


---EDIT---
Ok we posted at the same time

 

[notabob]

my view is that until you are full cave certified, you ARE a student


i am certified through NSS-CDS (cavern) and NACD (Intro.)

In which case you should probably already know by now that per the rules, unless you have a waiver from your full-cave rated instructor, you are not allowed to dive doubles at the intro level. you got the waiver I take it? Or planning on switching to another agency?

And by the way, whenever you're diving without an instructor and with a c-card that says "intro to cave" sitting on your dash, you're not a student, but a ceritified intro to cave diver. Semantics, but somewhat important ones.

 

[H2Andy]

But Andy, what do you mean by "student" someone in class or someone like you and I who are still learning?

basically, i think of anyone who is not full cave as a student

If you mean that for folks like us and Soggy and notabob "the dangers of diving doubles outweigh the dangers of diving a single." I disagree (for the reasons already posted by others).

well... let me say first... the "dangers" here are infinitesimal. i think they are
blown out of proportion.

let's say that there's a .001 percent chance of a single tank failure. ok, i believe
that there is a .002 chance of misusing the supply of air in a tank, getting into
a situation where you are in trouble, and getting into a dicey situation.

i think misuse of the doubles is a more realistic danger. thus, yes, statistically,
i believe we would all be safer diving singles as students.

BUT

you can't really grow and dive up to full cave with just singles, so i see a good
compromise to allow students to dive doubles since the danger is so slim anyway.

but i don't agree with suggesting that diving a single is so dangerous that it should
not be permitted. in fact, i believe that diving a single is (marginally) safer than
diving doubles.

both dangers are, to me, off the realistic scale. i know you and i are not going to
screw up with our air calculations. i also know that the chances of a single tank
blowing are probalby a million to one (i don't know the exact figures).

 

[H2Andy]

you got the waiver I take it?

yup

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